OT: Politics: Vocabulary List For Dubya To Study

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Swingman notes:

I'm more than uneasy over the present involvement. Bush has flip-flopped so many times on the causes of the Iraq war that it's enough to make your head spin. For a long time, it was the imminence of a launch of WMDs, which Bush finally admitted was not the case. Then he was a collaborator with Al Quaida, which is also not true, and again the lack of reality is admitted by Bush--six or eight months afterwards. Next up, he was a brutal dictator, and the world is better off without him in office. Yeah, maybe. But so what, at least from a U.S. viewpoint.
I'm at a point where it is going to take some major information to make me change my mind about this war. While the troops do a marvelous job, which they also did in 'Nam for the most part, the politicians feed them into the meat grinder on a job that does NOT need doing. There has been some howling about treason on Dan Rather's part; to me, the activities that kill young Americans, many Iraqis, and deplete our national treasury are treasonous.
If we do need a draft (and I agree with your definition of need: not a politician's screed, but a true national need to defend the country), we're apt to face a lot of cynical young people who may, generations later, holler, "Hell, no, GBW, we won't go," very much as many members of a generation yelled in the late '60s. And for the same reasons.
Those who don't learn from history, etc. Charlie Self "America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own." John Quincy Adams
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"Charlie Self" wrote in message

So am I ... having been intimately involved, so to speak, in a previous one, that this one seems like 'I've been down this road before', is hard to deny.

I understand that ... but I have to tell you that I get more than a bit aggravated when I see organized protests against Bush/America, especially in this country, when there were none against Saddam. Besides, whether you or I were for this current can or worms is besides the point, we damn sure don't have much choice now.
But we have a history. We handed Japan back to the Japanese, and Germany back to the Germans. I am hoping like hell we can sustain the will to do the same with Iraq, now that the options on that score appear to be limited, whether by precipitous involvement or not.

While I don't necessarily agree with you in toto, I respect your points. In a nutshell, I personally tend more toward the philosophy of carrying the fight away from these shores at almost any cost. That may well come from wanting to protect my wife and daughter's from the life of fear that many Europeans have had to put up with recently. Living in constant fear is not hard, it's impossible ... your mind simply won't let you, and the resulting effects of that effort last a lifetime. Simply put, I don't want any of mine to have to go through that, whatever it takes.

I am pretty well convinced that if will take a "clear and present" danger to, or on, these shores to get the draft instituted in this country again ... and another politician will pop who is willing to somehow use that to his advantage once again.
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Swingman responds:

Yeah, unfortunately. I wonder if some pop historian might be willing to do a book on when political life became the egotists heaven, when the politician quit caring for right and started loving the expedient. I know, I know. All political types love the expedient. But it seems like in the years since Nixon, the expedient has become the goal, while anything moral--and I give NO religious meaning to moral, so am not willing to class opposing abortion as a sign of anything more than pandering to the one-subject voter--has become anathema, or, at best, forgotten in the stampede to sweep all before the Party.
In the past 30 or 35 years, politics seems to me to have been all downhill. How much of that is attributable to LBJ and 'Nam and how much to Nixon and his successors, including Jimmy Carter, I don't know. But it might be a fun research project with a large enough book advance in one's pocket, assuming one had a reputation for writing pop history.
And maybe it is just our segment of society unwinding itself as the Chinese Century begins.
Charlie Self "Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles." Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary
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"Charlie Self" wrote in message

Laugh if you will, but that, in my opinon, may be the direct result of the proliferation of lawyers holding public office. :)
Law schools don't teach morality, but instead teach that if something is not specifically illegal according to the law, it is OK whether it is *moral* by conventional standards or not. There is little doubt in my mind that is used as justification for a lot of political motives and shennigans, from city government on up.

I've noted the trend myself ... and I wonder just how much of it can be attributed to the advent of rapid communication? There is little doubt that human endeavors have become much more complicated since the advent of the Gutenberg Press. <g>
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Swingman wrote:

You might be interested in looking over HR163 and S89. (You can plug either bill number into the Library of Congress bill search at http://thomas.loc.gov )
If passed, it'd require service of /all/ young men and women [whose parents aren't politically "connected".]
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On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:13:00 -0500, Morris Dovey wrote:

For a little insight, make sure to look at the sponsers of these bills and the party they belong to.
-Doug
--
"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples
then you and I will still each have one apple.
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Not worthy of notice as they will quietly die. I am well aware of both those bills ... and also aware that they were introduced a couple of shameless Democrats with an agenda.
Most folks were smart enough not to fall for the ploy ... but it did raise some consternation among the more naive of the college crowd, which was the intent.
Shameful tactics.
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Dammit, Swing - I love ya buddy but the analogy don't ring.
Japan and Germany invited us to the party - We took the party to Iraq.
We took the party to French Indo China, too.
When political theorists get hold of a situation, they start talking in terms of acceptable results that do not acknowledge the true human costs of a hard shooting war.
I've lost too many friends and the full health of too much family to be playing games in Iraq.
I don't want to hear the terms, "acceptable losses", collateral damage", "friendly fire", applied to the current generation. particularly since, if the current thinking is continued, my baby boy might be at issue.
That is where it all falls apart.
I won't let George Bush put my child at risk for a conflict that I do not understand.
Regards, Tom.
"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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He won't but if Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) has his way they will do service. Seen Senate Bill S89 for details.
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wrote:

I love you too, Tom ... but isn't it a little late for that rationale? We're in the party whether we like or not. Maybe we don't have "to dance with who brung us", but we damn well better have the will to suceed like we did with Japan and Germany.
I don't see how you can argue with that?

Yep ... I seem to have dim recollection of the 4th quarter of that one. :)

I'll do you one better than that ... I won't let ANY politician put my child at risk.
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Amen, Brother - and God Bless.
We may disagree on the particulars but we're straight on the important stuff.
Regards, Tom.
"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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What? Japan and Germany *invited* us? Yeah, after we thoroughly crushed their countries and the bulk of their standing armies.
... snip of every conflict henceforth and evermore shall be the next Vietnam and we should either avoid them or turn tail and run from all conflicts, whether they are of strategic need or not.
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On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:32:06 -0700, Mark & Juanita

sigh...
Regards, Tom.
"People funny. Life a funny thing." Sonny Liston
Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1
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Japan delivered their invitation to Pearl Harbor.
Germany announced its to the world, and FDR was listening.
--

FF

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Most obviously, Colin Powell.
--

FF

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Chicken Little? Is that you? What, exactly, would you have the president say? Come on air and tell everybody we are losing a war to a ragtag bunch of punks? Should he wring his hands and give the enemy more ammo? The fact is that everything that is happening was forewarned. They said months ago that attacks would likely increase as they got closer to elections. Doesn't this make sense? Death and maimings? Uhh, well this is a war. You can't use what is happening now as justification that we never should have gone in. This is what wart is, and the fact we only lost 1000 is astounding historically.
In the big picture, while things obviously could be better, they are not all that bad. Iraq is working hard toward establishing a police force, and the latest I hear is that they are going to start cracking down in the coming weeks. I think they are up to about 100,000 now.
dwhite
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carrier . I assumed it referred to the long tour of duty that carrier and it's crew had just completed and not to the end of hostilities in Iraq. that obviously would be announced at some meeting where all branches of the service were present....mjh
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It was a rhetorical question.
The speech he gave on the carrier was an address to the nation--not just to the military and certainly not just to the carrier officers and crew.
--

FF

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...

Eh? Kerry's been talking about issues for months now. It's just that the only thing the media has been covering has been the Swift Boat nonsense, Rathergate crapola, and snide accusations of flip-flopping. Transcripts and archives for speeches for both candidates are on their respective websites.
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Crapola? ANY news organization that puts falsified documents on the air should be taken to task. I don't care if it is political, economic, public, private, whatever, Fake is fake and not checking sources in just plain unacceptable. IMO, Rather should stuff his half hearted apology and retire. Yes, retire before his ass is fired.
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