OT: Pol and Missing Explosives!

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Thought there were no WMD???????????
So 350 tons of HIGH explosives could NOT cause MASS DESTRUCTION??????
How much more could Liberal Dems talk out of both sides of their mouths?????
PUHLEASE!!!!!!!
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Elmar wrote:

Get real please.
JK
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Well, technically that's _A_ massively destructive weapon, but not a Weapon of Mass Destruction (chemical, biological, or nuclear weapon). OK, well, technically technically, explosives are chemicals, but that's still not really the definition.

Close. The real question is "Why do they believe that these were there when we got there, but they don't believe that the Sarin shells and the like that we also knew he had weren't there when we got there, when both of them aren't in obvious locations now"?

There's also that bit about Kerry pretending they were there when we got there, when people who were there at the time say they weren't. But, like his role model Clinton, he doesn't let facts get in the way of his speeches.
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                            :<)
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The explosives in question (actually explosive precursors) were inventoried and lockup up by the IAEA as part of the weapons inspections program WE insisted on. The type of explosive was classified as 'dual use' maeaning that it was suitable for the chemical explosive used in an implosion bomb. As such, it was not prohibitted to Iraq, but Iraq was required to account for it. For example, a few months before the invasion Iraq notified the IAEA that it was moving some portion to another site, ISTR it was officially intended so a conventional use.
IAEA is STILL responsible for monitoring this dual-use material as well as the nuclear materials that they had inventoried and sealed. But, except for when we needed them to clean up the mess at Tuwaitha, we have not allowed IAEA or UNMOVIC to reinventory the WMD-related sites. UNMOVIC and IAEA have had to rely on satellite recon to continue their monitoring program.
The quarterly reprots to teh UN are posted online at the UN website and also at the Federation of American Scientists website.

Not sure what you're getting at here but you may recall that Iraq used chemical munitions during the war with Iran, and against the Kurds. Iraq also moved some chemical munitions to forward positions during the 1991 war and then abandoned those positions leaving them behind. Not all munitions detonate properly upon impact, indeed a 10% failure rate is considered normal for US artillery shells.
If you will read the Duelfer report (not just the summary) you'll find that the mustard and sarin munitions that have turned up in Iraq are consistant with duds recovered from old battlefields and test ranges, or long-abandoned caches, not stockpiles being hoarded and stored in recent years. Check out the photos showing the con- ditions of some of these munitions.
Maybe Bush thinks it was worth the deaths of 1100 plus Americans to recover those, I do not.
--

FF

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<snip> Maybe Bush thinks it was worth the deaths of 1100 plus Americans torecover those, I do not.
OMG!! Ok. Now that I'm over my initial reaction to this remark let me help you with this. September 11, 2001 we were attacked by terrorists on our home soil. We watched people having to decide if it was better to die in the fires or jump to their deaths. Our economy came to a screeching halt due to the fear we had of being vulnerable. Our children were effected. We were effected. Do I really need to remind you how you felt? How the world felt?
Fast forward to today...to Iraq. Ask yourself these following questions. Are we being attacked by terrorists today? I'll help you with the answer. Yes. Where? In Iraq. You mean we are not being attacked here? Nope. But we are being attacked there? Yep. Why there and not here? Good question. Because that is the location of the front line on the war on terror that we chose. That is the location we orchestrated. But what was wrong with Afghanistan? Ask yourself this question...did the terrorists rallying to fight us there? Not really. Why not? Because they fled to other places. To do what? Regroup.
Anyone who believes the sole reason for invading Iraq was WMDs is a fool. Anyone who believes taking out Osama would bring an end to this is equally a fool. And don't waste yours and my time by telling me that was what Bush told us. No it wasn't. It's what the media focused on but it wasn't the only reason. And the possibility still exists that we may very well find evidence. The possibility of WMDs was/is important. But it isn't THE most important part of the equation. This isn't a fast food version of war. You don't pull up, order peace and pull to the next window.
1100 plus Americans have died. That is an indisputable fact. You have reduced it to a man making an error based on supposition. I for one choose to think they have died in an effort to give us back that which we have lost. You do not think the death of 1100 Americans is worth this effort. What has to happen before you do? You see, that is what you really have to ask yourself. How many more non-combatant innocent civilian lives would it take before you approve of risking the lives of those who have chosen to fight for us? That is the key word.....chosen. Chose if needed to defend.
Every American soldier.... every civilian employee in Iraq made a choice. America made a choice. We chose to fight. Tuesday you have a choice. Whether you choose Kerry or Bush you need to remember what's ahead of us.....not what's behind us. If we learn from our mistakes then ask yourself.... who is better prepared to lead us the next 4 years?
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mel said:

Eisenhower.
Greg G.
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In Iraq we are fighting an insurgency that did not exist there befor we invaded. That those insurgent has chosen to ally themselves with AL Quaida and other paramilitary groups that have attacked us in the past is no surprise. The people our military kills and captures in Iraq are pretty much all Iraqi--at least that is what the DOD says.

We chose to open up a second war in Iraq, against a different enemy. We avoided the mistake the Soviets had made in Afghanistan, we did not get mired down with ground troops fighting Afghan Insurgents in an endless war. Then we went and made EXACTLY the same mistake in Iraq.
Al Quaida and others who ARE the enemy are dispersed among at least 30 countries. Do you think we can invade them all? We certainly have destroyed any chance of convincing the governments of those countries to crack down and cooperate.

Certainly not to Iraq. Looks like they mostly fled to Pakistan, though some did wind up in Iraqi-Kurdistan, out of the reach of Saddam Hussein and close enough to slip over the border into Iran. Given the good relationship we had with the Kurds, maybe we should have struck there instead of invading Iraq from the South, giving time for Zarqawi and his followers to get away.

You are quite correct that was not only one reason he gave. That one gets a lot of attention because the campaign of lies and deception he used to promote it.
Notice that Lybia has given up its WMD programs, but has not turned over any Al Quaida suspects to us?
It is not JUST about Osama bin Laden but it doesn't make any sense forget about him either.

What crap! Prior to the invasion of Iraq we had the support and the cooperation of the world, including the moderate Arabs. We were the liberators of Kuwait and Afghanistan. We ahd the support of the world when we demanded that Iraq resubmit to weapons inspections and Iraq complied.
Then we submitted forged documents to the IAEA and bad intel to UNSCOM, and then, after IAEA certified that Iraq was incompliance with the ban on nuclear weapons program and UNMOVIC had declared it was receiving 'unprecedented' cooperation from the Iraqi government, we went ahead and invaded anyways.
We proved to the world that we cannot be trusted. Now we are the (new) oppressors of Iraq. Now we lost all of the support we had after September 11. Now those paramilitary groups that threaten us can operate freely in Iraq and can recruti there are throughout the world.
What do you think we gained?

What do you think the destablization of Iraq has acomplished? I'll grant you that if Iraq becomse a democracy and that democracy does not elect to make war with Israel or massacre the Kurds then that will be a long-term improvment. That is a big IF. Right now, is there not still the risk that Iraq will be torn apart in civil war or become a fundamentalist religious state aligned with Iran?

The question you have to ask yourself is have ANY civilian lives been saved by de-stabilizing Iraq? Or is there not now a greater danger to civilians as the Iraqi insurgency may seek to open a new front in the war for Iraq, on American soil? Historically Al Quaida has spaced their attacks on American assets 2-4 years apart. The current lull is typical in that respect.
How well disposed is our military to stop Al Quaida and others from regrouping now that our military is bogged down in Iraq?
How prepared are we for a nuclear attack from North Korea or a renewed Taliban offensive in Afghanistan?

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Gulf of Tonkin, LBJ, Vietnam, 1964, all over again. Maybe you don't remember that.

Agreed, if we learn from our mistakes we won't make the same mistake we did four years ago.
--

FF

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True, but those same insurgents had their eyes on us soil, now it's Iraq. Why, they understand that if a democratic form of government is established there, their toast.

Wrong, nobody disputes that Saddam was a financial supporter of terrorism and hates the US. Direct ties with 9/11 can't be proven.

Oh, so we stick our heads in the sand and plead "pretty please let us alone, pretty please" ? Libya already has stopped and turned over it's nuke program. You are free by strength, not by being messengers of "feel good" diplomacy.

What crap, our relationship with Europe has been not good for decades. You want to side with France, Germany and Russia, when they were accepting Saddams bribes, what a bunch of sh....

3+ years of no major terror attacks on US soil, pretty damned important! I want a President that makes decisions on my families security, not what a bunch of socialists want.

Destabilization of Iraq? We have destroyed over 600 tons of weapons cache's in Iraq and the lunatic that controlled them no longer has a job. If you would get you head out of the sand and look beyond the news media, you would find a country that has more open schools, hospitals, electricity than they have had in the last 25 years.

So who gave nuke capability to North Korea? Mr. Clinton, and your supporting a guy who has stated he wants to do the same for Iran!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh yea worring about North Korea plus Iran makes a lot of sense!

Oh yes I do, this is not the same, not even close!!

BS, you can't put a guy in office that has done nothing but promise what the audience he is talking too at the time, what they want to hear. Unfortunately when he says 2 + 2 = 3 there are people like you that buy it, even thought the mathematicians say 2 + 2 = 4.
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You honestly think that the Iraqis were interested in coming over here to attack us in the US? That's nonsense.

Huh, Iraq is toast if democracy is established there? I'll grant you that it is unlikely that a Democracy will be established but I think that would be a good thing.

Saddam Hussein was quite open about support for the suicide bombers in Israel/Palenstine. The detablization of Iraq and removal of Saddam Hussein helps Israel in the short term in that regard. In the long term Israel and the Palestinians have to make their own peace.
In the longer run what emerges in Iraq may or may not be good for Israel. A Shiite-dominated democracy or theocracy that declares war on Israel would not be a good thing.
There is no evidence that Saddam Hussein supported any of the attacks on American assetts, nor any reason to suppose that he would dare to do so in the future.
Saddam Hussein was a different enemy, one that was contained and impotent. Now we are bogged down in Iraq the way the Soviets were in Afghanistan. The Soviets had no trouble defeating the Afghan military. The Mujahadeen turned out to be a different matter.

Which is completely consistent with there being none.

I disagree.
The example of Afghnistan showed that we were willing to use whatever force was necessary. Iraq took that to heart and cooperated fully with the UN inspections program of 2002-2003. Then we invaded anyhow and now we are fighting who knows how many many factions of the Iraqis themselves, instead of Saddam Hussein's military.

Libya was stopped through diplomacy. It is not clear if the example of Afghanistan would have been enough, the negotionatiosn were secret and appear to have started befor the invasion of Iraq, but the invasion of Iraq may have been the deciding facgtro from Libya's perspective.

In November 2001 we went ot war with Afghanistan with the full approval of the United Nations, including France, Germany, Russia and China, and the cooperation of most of Europe. I consider that a good relationship.

Remember the World Trade Center Bombing in 1993, shortly after Clinton took office? When was the next foreign paramilitary attack on US soil? I'll remind you, it was EIGHT years later in 2001--shortly after George W Bush took office--only GWB had a lot more warning.
There is no reason to believe that the invasion of Iraq has prevented any attacks within the US. In Iraq, we are not even fighting the people who have attacked us in the past.

Non responsive. Do you really argue that Iraq has not been destabilized?

Please tell us more, like how you learned that.

Talk about revisionism!
As you know when Clinton was president, North Korea stopped its nuclear weapons production, the facilities were sealed and security cameras installed to monitor the facilites to verify that they remained undisturbed.
Then Bush took office. Then North Korea took down the cameras, reopened their facilites, renewed their programs built a half dozen nuclear bombs and Bush has done nothing at all. Bush won't even discuss the matter.
What does he want, nuclear war on the Korean Penninsula? That's where his policies have us headed. Is that his plan, bait North Korea into attacking so he can justify reprisal?

Why not?

The insurgents in Iraq are using the same tactics Charlie employed in Vietnam. If we respond the same way we'll get the same result.
--

FF

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<snip>Why, they understand that if a

<snip>Huh, Iraq is toast if democracy is established there? I'll grant youthat it is unlikely that a Democracy will be established but I think that would be a good thing.
I think what Phil meant was those Iraqis who'd slaughter their own people. The Bathe Party, mass graves, rape & torture chambers, public executions of women for breaking the rules meant to keep them as a sublevel citizenry...stuff like that.
<snip>Saddam Hussein was a different enemy, one that was contained andimpotent
If by contained you mean like a wolf in a pen with sheep then yeah...he was contained. Impotent? I think he was doing an excellent job of screwing his own people. (see above response) I lived in a rural area once. We had a volunteer fire department. Close by there was a municipal fire department that served the local municipality. I could see you living in that city and trying to stop the municipal fire department from responding to a fire in the rural area. "Wait guys!" you'd say. "That isn't threatening our city and you may get killed if you respond! We need to get all the cities around this area to jointly respond." As the fire grows.....
Actually that's not fair. What I truly suspect is you wouldn't even hesitate to allow those men to do what they need to do and if any perished you'd lift them up as heroes...and....I don't think you'd blame the mayor if he'd ordered the effort.
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No, but I still sure would vote against him if I thought that the balance of his discretionary policy decisions were overwhelmingly wrong across the board.
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I think that phil's thoughts got ahead of his writing. I could probably guess at what he meant, but it better to point out that what he wrote didn't make sense than to guess wrong.

That's true because a fire next door is an imminent danger.
I'd get upset if the FD started a practice fire next door and it got out of hand because they weren't prepared to put out what they started. Then I'd call the Fire Chief a dumb-ass and want him replaced. How about you?
--

FF

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As a long term member of a combined city/rural fire protection district. Fires in the rural district presented virtually no threat to the town. We could surround the town and keep any fire away. It never occurred to any of us to think of how the rural fire presented a risk to us. These folks traded in our town. (Some of the funds we had for equipment came about because we responded to their fires) but that's beside the point. We considered them to be "Our fires". The innocent Iraqis, slaughtered by Sadaam were "our human brothers". Sometimes humanitarian efforts require more than saving old clothes and sending them.
bob g.
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:

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How do you reconcile the innocent Iraqis killed by our actions?
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____

"To know the world intimately is the beginning of caring."
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It is one thing to go into a neighboring community to help fight THEIR fires. It is another to set a backfire that consumes the community.
--

FF

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I'm going to keep this as simple as possible. You don't have to agree with why or how we wound up in Iraq. By your own admission we are facing an insurgency that we aren't prepared to face. By "we" I mean the American people. Our military is quite capable but "we" are just a tad bit too squeamish to allow what it would take.
Kerry's solution.... more troops in harm's way. Granted he says for a limited time but more troops none-the-less. That is his plan. I have a big problem with that. He is willing to sell the lives of men and women in an effort to appease public opinion...can you say LBJ?
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In your opinion, what, exactly would it take?
--

FF

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Overwhelming force.
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What, exactly, would make that force overwhelming, more troops?
--

FF

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