OT - one last time

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This is a one time post on this off-topic subject - I will not respond to replies or mention the matter again.
Some of you may remember a heated debate about Iraq which erupted here a while back.
At the time, I offered to publicly apologize in this group and others if those "massive stockpiles" of WMDs the administration said were in Iraq were found.
Well, after the intelligence committee report, Bush is reduced to saying Saddam had the capability to make them.
Yes, "I told you so" is an unseemly gloat - but it's so much fun :-).
I'm looking forward to an equivalent apology from all those who foamed at the mouth when I, and others, doubted the administration.
I'm waiting . . . . . . . . . .
--
There ARE no Iraqi WMDs!

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Damn that Bush. I wish that Bush had chosen a better director of the CIA when he nominated him. When Bush chose him to......what?...he was nominated by Clinton? But Clinton never did anything wrong that didn't involve a bit of "gobble the wiener".
That wasn't what you were looking for? Try this on for size.
The Senate Intelligence Committee's report was basically a harsh rebuke of the CIA. To answer your insinuation regarding the Bush administration, let me quote the report:
"The committee did not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities."
So, the administration relied on the data supplied when it asked for authorization from Congress. It now appears that that data was faulty. You want to blame someone...start with Tenet.
I'll be waiting for your apology to President Bush.
todd
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let the weaseling out begin...
randy
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Todd Fatheree responds:

One point: Bush re-appointed Tenet.

Ayup. But Bush now stands by his invasion of Iraq as necessary, regardless of the lack of factual material leading up to it.
It's quite possible that different leaders might have reacted differently to inaccurate information--like asking for a re-check because the CIA has been known for decades as Boy Scouts who couldn't light a campfire when the directions were on the box of matches.
Charlie Self "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others." Ambrose Bierce
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It isn't news that the president believed that there were other compelling reasons to remove Saddam from power.

It's also equally possible that they would have done what Bush did. But cmon...what do you expect him to do? Demoralize the troops in the field and tell the world it was all a big mistake? No matter which side you're on (unless you're a Nader-head), we can't just say "oops...our bad" and pick up and leave at this point. We have to complete the mission, and that's hard to do with troops on the ground who just got told that their being there is a giant waste of time.
todd
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Todd Fatheree responds:

Sounds oddly familiar. Forty years old, or almost, but familiar.
Charlie Self "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others." Ambrose Bierce
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I realize that some people feel that every conflict is another Vietnam. So, you're saying it would be a grand idea to tell the troops that they're over there for nothing and just come on home?
todd
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Todd Fatheree responds:

Not everything is another 'Nam, but you can believe that at a certain point, no one is going to have to tell the troops taht the politicians are killing and maiming them unnecessarily.
Whether this war will turn into a disaster on a scale of Vietnam I don't know...nor do you. The fact is, though, we're not helping ourselves slow up or stop the terrorists by fighting in Iraq. It's also possible that those who claim we are creating more terrorists are right. I don't know for sure. Nor do you, unless God is whispering in your ear.
But the situation damned well needs examining in that light, in the light of past experience.
Charlie Self "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others." Ambrose Bierce
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Yep. Declare victory and go worked a charm. Ask the millions who suffered "reeducation" or extermination as the dominos fell.
Succinctly, the war is over, support the peace.

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George writes:

And you think remaining in Iraq for a decade or so is going to make a difference there?
I don't think anyone suggested that leaving 'Nam worked well, but it was done without much thought--similar, I'd guess, to exit strategies that will eventually be used in Iraq.
Charlie Self "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others." Ambrose Bierce
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to summarize: lying is ok keep troop spirit high, and when once the planes have left the ground its too late to stop them from dropping their bombs no matter what new information is brought to light. it just wouldnt make the troops feel good about themselves...
randy
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What's the lie? The administration relied on information from the CIA in making a decision to go to war. It was a key part, but not the only part of the decision. The administration feels that there are other good reasons to be there. I'm not in favor of telling the troops that they are wasting their time. Apparently you are.
todd
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the lie is this, in your words: "we can't just say "oops...our bad"
yes we can todd. you know those scenes in movies where 'things are set into motion' and there is always some war hungry general saying we cannot turn back? we must launch the missles anyway? you know how stupid that guy looks? it doesnt look any better in real life.
the troops already know they are wasting their time. what im not in favor of is them giving up their lives or taking the lives of others just to 'save face'. in your words: "We have to complete the mission, and that's hard to do with troops on the ground who just got told that their being there is a giant waste of time."
no todd, we dont have to 'complete' anything. we could pull our troops out today. since you seem to be taking the stance that troop morale is so important, they could come home and not worry about being shot. i bet that would do quite a bit for their morale.
randy
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The vast majority of troops do not believe they are now wasting your time. Apparently, the reenlistment rate is very high. So, your plan is to just pack up and leave? That's brilliant. Even the biggest leftie in the Senate, John F-ing Kerry, doesn't believe what you believe. Even a seasoned veteran of an entire 4 months in Vietnam (most of that time spent filling out requests for purple hearts), thinks we have to stay.
todd
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im glad the troops dont believe they are wasting my time...
re-enlistment rates are very high? where did you get that info? or is it just 'apparent'..
ya todd. in disagreement with the 'experts' i think we should pack up and leave. the 'experts' have been handling things so far and theyve done a real bang up job. literally.
randy
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I heard a military type on the radio. I'll try to find the backup, if it will make any difference. If I prove that the reenlistment rate is high, will you concede that the troops don't think they are wasting their time, as you have already asserted?

Yeah, we should listen to Randy instead. Give me a break.
todd
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well we started at very high, now we're down to high. lets quote that so there is no misunderstanding: "Apparently, the reenlistment rate is very high"
but ill let it slide. if you can prove (provide accurate numbers not just quote some guy on the radio) that the re-enlistment rate is high. not just that some are re-enlisting, but that the number is actually high. and by high i dont mean its 1% more than last month. i mean like say 50% (or whatever number you can qualify by providing some proof to show that it is considered a high rate) re-enlistment and not under duress, and not these officers being forced to return to duty, then i will concede that the troops dont think they are wasting their time. ill make a seperate thread denouncing myself and everything.
will you do the same if you cant?

besides simply attacking me, whats your point? im sure im not the only person who thinks we should just leave...
randy
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If it takes a paragraph of stipulations, I won't bother. I can already tell whatever the number is, it won't be enough.

I could probably find a few hundred people who believe they've been abducted by aliens. But go ahead and convince me. Draw up a withdrawal strategy that takes all of the relevant issues into account. Be sure to include the ramifications on the existing Iraqi government. Everyone I've heard on both sides of this issue say that just packing up and leaving is the biggest possible mistake.
todd
todd
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you said high. im asking you to define it. you said re-enlist. im asking you to define that. i dont think im asking much.
you are just weaseling out.

i never came here to convince anyone of anything. just to call bullshit when someone starts saying the troops are re-enlisting at a high rate. lets get back to what you said before we start off on a tangent. oh. i forgot. you arent going to bother to back up your statement because i demand such crazy things as for you to define your terms like 'high' and 're-enlisting' before debating whether or not they actually are those things...
but im done with this thread. call me chicken or whatever. lets just say i dont play tic tac toe either. but i will be voting.
randy
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I know exactly where this is headed, but here it is. There was a USA Today story from April which pegged the re-enlistment rate at 96%. Does 96% fall into your scale for "high"? Here is the link to the story. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-15-iraq-troops_x.htm . The story goes on to say that the rate is lower than it had been a year before, but any way you want to slice it, 96% is a big number. If a significant number of troops felt they were wasting their time, I don't think they would be reenlisting at that rate.

Well, let's go genius. You want to pull the troops out...let's hear the whole plan. For Christ's sake, any idiot can go shooting off about "well, l et's just pull 'em all out!". Let's hear the logistics and ramifications. Oh, and high%. I hope I don't have to actually define "re-enlist" for you.

If you dare respond to this, let the tap dancing begin.
todd
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