OT: Obama stops oil leak in Gulf. BP staff grateful.

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Neil Brooks wrote:

Exactly what words did I put in your mouth? Be specific, I hate when I get something wrong.

Well, here's the info on the US: The overall 5 year survival rate for prostate Cancer in the US is 100%, the 10 year survival rate is 92% and the 15 year survival rate is 70%. The high prostate cancer survival rates are primarily because nearly 91% of cases in the United States are detected while the cancer is still contained within the Prostate or in nearby areas.

You can do the same for other metrics as well, breast cancer for example. Moreover, no one has noticed US citizens sneaking across boarders to seek health care in Canada or England...

Logical, not stupid.

Our economic systems are political. To deny it whilst you watch reruns of law and order, or Beavis and Butthead won't change a thing.

You have no point, you are pointless, now off with you to the land of point, where you surely will be stuck forever at the point of no return!

Left/right thinking, not black/white thinking. What are you a racist?

My party is the one thats despises socialist bastards the most...

As said earlier, your lack of imagination is unremarkable...

Only if you're a narrow minded boob. Surely you've heard of left wingers like Arlene Spector, or... ah, never mind... hate to blind you with the light...

I've learned long ago the more complicated things get, the less likely they are correct or even working. Simple is good, convoluted is bad. Think E=MC²
--
Jack
It's "We the People" not Me the President!
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I do believe that Caribou Barbie aka Sarah Palin has unashamedly admitted to her family often crossing into Canada for their health care.
Dave in CZ-land
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NOW you're sounding even WORSE -- more like a "Creationist."
The human body is STAGGERINGLY complicated, yet ... for the most part ... it works amazingly well.
Yeah: YOU need things simple because THAT's what YOU can get your head around.
But you do a lot of damage with that process of yours -- at LEAST ... to truth, facts, logic, and intellect ;-)
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Be nice. They'd be republicans.
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On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 06:31:51 -0700, busbus wrote:

The simplest and best solution to the health care problem would indeed have been to extend Medicare to all. It would have brought a younger healthier group in and thus cut costs. We might even have been able to increase payment rates to doctors and hospitals because of that.
But it wasn't politically palatable.
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Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

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Larry Blanchard wrote:

As it stands, Medicare is a failure. Private insurance makes up for a lot of the Medicare (and Medicaid) expenses when doctors and hospitals charge private insurance more for services than paid by government programs. Worse, government has no bottom line so they are ALWAYS incompetent and expensive. If a government worker does a poor job, he gets ignored or transferred to another supervisor that's incompetent enough to not care. When the whole country is on Medicare, things will get worse, far worse.
For example, when everyone in the country is on Medicaid, you end up with 50% of prostrate cancer patients dying instead of 10-15%.
--
Jack
64,999,987 firearms owners killed no one yesterday.
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I wasn't saying to put EVERYBODY on Medicaid! LOL Just those who want to go on it. Of course, that is available ALREADY to people below a certain income level. I get sick of those people who do not "qualify" for it but are screaming to be put on government-run health insurance.
I agree that government-tun ANYTHING will not be efficient or good. The government does not know how to run a business and they shouldn't have to worry about doing so. Government only knows how to control costs two ways: cutting things willy-nilly or raising taxes (but raising taxes wins more times than not). The only "incentive" government cares about is making sure *ALL* the customers are happy. Not the TAXPAYERS, mind you, they focus on the USERS only. The incentive for a business is *GASP* that new dirty word: PROFIT. Businesses want to get as much of their product to as many consumers as they can butt hey want to make money on it. As such, they will trim the fat whenever possible and charge what the market will bear. Plain and simple. Price it too low and you will go out of business because you can't cover costs. Price it too high and the consumer will not buy it.
Oh, know. That last sentence is where liberals start to lose it. Many think that health care costs are too high and the public simply has no choice but to pay what these businesses charge. Agreed. To a point. There NEEDS to be more competition but if you let the government in and allow the government to be in charge of all the rules, then that is not competition: government will become the monopoly and then you will end up with a system where the costs ARE too high and you will not have any other recourse because there will not be any other players in the market.
Getting back to the original topic of this thread, Obama is filled with more hot air than anybody I have ever heard before. Of course, just turning 50 means that I am just a child in the eyes of many here and I am sure there may have been others who were as bad but I bet not many. He goes out and talks like HE did this and HE did that and whenever something HE did gets screwed up in any way, shape, or form, HE blames Bush. Or the evil BP. I am not saying that BP or Bush were above reproach. BP has been aloof in many ways throughout this entire oil spill crisis and Bush started this "too big to fail" crap, so they both have some big black marks against them, YMMV.
Bottom line is this: Reagan got a whole hell of a lot accomplished in his two terms and he had to deal with a Democratic Congress the whole time. There was cooperation back then and we have not seen it since.
As far as when I said Obama has no plan, I still stick by that. He is a very shallow man, I fear. He skims the surface and believes he can read everything from that and he is wrong. He may be incredibly intelligent but he lacks wisdom. Maybe that is one reason Reagan was a good President: He was not a Rhodes scholar or a lawyer or a professor but he did have a lot of wisdom. Good old-fashioned wisdom is sorely lacking today everywhere.
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Here's another way to look at health care:
There's NO MONEY in dead people. There's NO MONEY in healthy people.
All the money is in the middle.
That's how it stands, today. YOU decide if it's wise.
I see it as a fundamental mis-alignment in the respective interests of the actors.
I want wellness. The health care industry -- overwhelmingly -- wants profit.
[See my first point]
If we did NOT view simple *health* as a for-profit industry, then ... maybe costs WOULD come down.
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.  

Typical Stein response.
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wrote: .

Typical Stein response.
I'm clueless. ~:o)
Dave in Houston
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By the way, I agree calling people names is childish...BUT...to continue the name-calling is even more childish. Who wins? The person who calls the other person a name last? Or is it the person who puts the name-calling behind them and tries to talk common sense?
Ahhhh, what's the use? I understand that conservative vs. liberal has existed since the beginning of time but that does not mean two (or more) adults with two polar-opposite points of view cannot have a deep, meaningful conversation about many t hings that happen in this world.
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Gosh. I've been in 49 states. I think they do an AMAZING job at MANY things.
Maybe the goal of health, education, security, and ... things like clean drinking water ... shouldn't BE fiscal profit.
In every other measure ... Medicare is viewed as a huge success.
Start by (you're going to flip out. I just know it) examining your own assumptions and definitions, Jack.
What's failure. What's success.
I wonder if you ever asked those questions about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
I ... simply cannot imagine you did, though.
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I have not been in 49 States but I do see a lot of waste in Government and they have to follow what is stated in the law, even if it makes no sense for an individual incident. Medicare is useful in a way but very wasteful in others. It could and probably should be run more efficiently. I am willing to bet that if a true, for-profit business looked at Medicaid, it would come up with numerous improvements AND would lower costs.
That said, it is STUPID to force everybody in the US into one plan like that, even if it wee run like a business because it will eventually be the only player in an entire industry--talk about a monopoly. Then the masses are truly screwed.
As far as the wars go, there has certain been a lot more good that has come about because of the wars than has been reported on the news, including Fox. I have had the privilege of talking to many troops because I work near an air base and they speak to me about the massive infrastructure improvements that have benefited the average, everyday person in Iraq and not just those at the top of the government. The biggest change I have heard is that women are getting more and more freedom over there (although Iraq was already probably the most liberal of the Arab countries).
Please do not start the topic of was. It is nice to say that we should not be involved in war and, in a perfect world, we wouldn't be involved ever. But the fact of the matter is that sometimes you get pushed into it. Just because you don't want to fight does not mean the other side will back off.
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And sometimes, you don't.

You didn't really ... at all ... directly engage in what I put forward. Odd, considering your basic premise, here, huh ?
Re: healthcare.
I didn't suggest a monopoly.
I didn't suggest that there were NO inefficiencies in Medicare (or any other system -- public OR private).
I suggested that ... it (Medicare) delivers a product that its consumers, in aggregate, like, and that ... maybe ... just MAYBE ... we shouldn't LOOK at basic health as a for-profit enterprise.
Seems you glossed RIGHT over that....
Re: war.
You manipulated MY point about wars: metrics. Definitions.
How are "success" or "failure" defined ?
[I raised that issue after ONE bonehead declared Medicare a "failure."]
Half the idiots in THIS country spout out with those terms, and -- when pressed -- can't paint a picture of what EITHER looks like.
War is a happy way to get unquestioning taxpayers to open their wallets, at the risk of being branded a "TRAITOR," or "bleeding heart," or some such drivel.
I don't remember a war that we had ANY business participating in, since WWII.
Maybe others disagree.
MY point ... is thinking.
My point is logic and facts, over dogma, ideology, and confirmation bias.
I wasn't raised to hold any/many cows sacred. I've learned to learn, and evaluate what I see ... through surprisingly little filtration/ prism.
Helps that I don't give a damn -- positive or negative -- about *who I am, or others are* (ie, race, nationality, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, etc., etc., etc.) but only about *what I, or they, do*.
Frees ME from a lot of bullshit :-)
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Okay, I will bite: What is my basic premise here?

Basic health is the individual's responsibility. Just because a lot of people "like" does not mean we should force all of us to go that route. There is no good reason why we SHOULDN'T look at basic health care INSURANCE as a for-profit enterprise. Actually, you sort of proved my point that government does not care about how a "business" is run as long as the users are happy. Of course the users of Medicaid are happy because it is funded by everybody and only used by some. Once everybody pays into one pot and everybody uses from one pot, things all around will more than likely take a nosedive and it will cost a LOT more per individual than it does now and services will be lessened. We are already hearing of doctors who are not taking on new MediCare patients. Same will happen with MedicAid (if it is not happening already). Then when doctors will be forced to take what the government will give them, they will close up and there will be less health care available. How is that helping things as a whole? I make sure I ask these sorts of questions whenever I go see a doctor or my dentist, so I think I have at least a little handle on what I am saying.

Yes, I disagree, but that is an issue for another thread.

I agree but many times logic causes two people to go down two separate paths. There is nothing to say that just because logic is used, even with facts, that two people will necessarily come to the exact same conclusion for a multitude of reasons. Just look at how you and I disagree about government run health care insurance (remember: it is NOT health care).

Actually, I don't give a hoot about what others really think of me, either!
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a) Your "basic premise" was outlined here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/tree/browse_frm/thread/9ee55fa26c2c1b99/04701dba1785bdbe?rnum=41&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.woodworking%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F9ee55fa26c2c1b99%2F7e86848dab42d634%3F#doc_e2e47a69d45c4b35

And ... despite the best efforts OF those individuals ... they often get sick, and need health care.
Sometimes, in fact, it seems to happen as a result of working to hard at jobs people hate, in order to try not to far TOO far behind the cost of living....

I STILL didn't say we should, but ... repeating that MAY get Jack Stein to believe that I did ;-)

I gave you one ... a HUGE one:
For profit changes the fundamental alignment of the two major players. The cheapest model for health care emphasized (WAY above anything else) ... staying healthy.
Everything else is almost certainly more expensive.

I didn't actually say that.

Nicely loaded question: propose a scenario that has NO evidence to support it, and then ask how it will help WHEN it comes to pass.
Bravo !

No. You have a handle on what YOUR doctors and dentists believe will or will not help them make more money.
Period.

Who said they should ?
Not I.
Everybody IS entitled to their own opinion (I call it values + facts), but they are NOT entitled to their own facts.
So many people -- painfully obvious on THIS ng -- are in love with their own facts.

You're making MY point. We manage disease, at HUGE expense.

That's ... not what I said, either, actually.
But ... you keep using *your* approach to discussion, and ... I'll try to stick with that 'logic' thing ;-)
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Well, right: they are in the business of making a living. Should they simply break even or lose money in the end? These are real, breathing people who put a whole heck of a lot of time and effort and money into their profession. Is it the fault of the doctors out there that costs are so high? Aren't they forced to have insurance out the wahzoo because people sue for any little thing these days? And what other costs are there? They have to pay the people who work for them. They even pay extra for the privilege of having employees in the form of extra taxes. They certainly do not get all their equipment for free, especially a dentist. How far in hock do you think these guys start out?
But I think I need to stop now. :o) I am beginning to see the light. There is an undertow of pretentiousness in your posts. The funny thing is that it is very similar to Jack's but you seem to get annoyed by his posts!
It is a shame that instead of working together and encouraging each other that people have more fun frustrating others.
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wrote:

But, the fact of the matter is that doctors, the insurance companies, and the corporate hospitals comprise the three-headed profit monster which IMO drives American health care costs. What part of the animal does that leave for big pharma? Underlying that is what [seemingly] has become the American business model: make as much as you can, any way you can short of going to jail. Buy a few congressmen if you have to; you have to spend money to make money - right? Cynical me.
Dave in Houston
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busbus wrote:

I agree with all you said except the above. It is not "funded" by everybody, the government is borrowing money to pay for it, and it is only a small number of people getting Medicare, and the government does not pay enough so those not on Medicare get to make up the difference.
Ignored the rest of your statement because I agree with it. Lets see if the fool that accused you of glossing over his lame statements can respond to anything you've said.
Neil babbled:

I noticed he addressed none of the issues, simply call people childish names.

I painted the picture for him, he couldn't muster a response other than call me an asshole... Cool beans!

their wallets, at the risk of being branded a "TRAITOR," or "bleeding

Tell him nobody wanted involved in WWII either.

His points are pointless drivel mostly. Oh, right he was in 49 states so Medicare and Medicaid is a great success.... who gives a damn if the government continues to spend more and more money it doesn't have and goes into increasing amounts of debt - hoping that somehow everything will just turn out okay. To fix this, the government will now nationalize health care so EVERYONE is on Medicaid... Soon, once the printing presses run out of money, the killing will begin just as it nearly always does when the socialist bastards run out of other peoples money!
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM
--
Jack
If You Think Health Care is Expensive now, Wait Until it's FREE!
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Neil Brooks wrote:

I've been in 57 states, not including Alaska and Hawaii, and I think they do a lousy job at most everything.

I already said why in the above quote. I guess I could add that just the interest on debt from these unfunded entitlement programs will soon exceed revenue... and you think they are working well?

Failure is when the government funds Medicare and Medicaid and can't pay the bill, whilst the private insurance companies are already footing part of the bill by paying more for service to make up for the low government payments.

I thought we were in Afghanistan for the drugs, and Iraq for the oil? Ali Obama seems to have no clue other than that. What do you think?

Your lack of imagination is unremarkable.
--
Jack
What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you NOT understand?
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