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With this groups propensity for off-topic rantings (yes, I'm guilty too), how come I've seen no comments about the memos surfacing that say the president can authorize torture?
My feeling is that we're in danger of becoming what we're fighting.
Note that our military, in general, is opposed to this because the Geneva convention and other treaties provide protection for our troops as well.
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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In this case, you have to fight fire with fire if the other side does not abide by the rules. The enemy brought all this on upon them selves. They thought they could hide behind the Geneva convention but not abide by the Geneva convention. Can't have you cake and eat it.

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I disagree Leon. Lowering our own standards will not further our cause.
To parallel past woodworking conversations, consider Delta's woes. To compete with lesser quality imports they apparently lowered their own quality standards in order to compete against this perceived (import) threat and in the process still lost market since a segment of the consumers valued quality over price.
The US needs to be the leader in human rights and conforming to conventions and treaties - if one doesn't fit current times then take the high road to change the agreements while still abiding by the rules currently in place. An eye for an eye only makes the government look as brutal and uncivilized as the perpetrators.
--
Owen Lowe and his Fly-by-Night Copper Company
Offering a shim for the Porter-Cable 557 type 2 fence design.
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wrote:

not
They
the
It's great that we can disagree. I wish we could have higher standards but this is a different kind of enemy. They go after civilians. War is war and you simply do not want to be on the loosing end. If the enemy understood diplomacy we would not be at war.

I think the problem here is that way too many in the U.S. feel that they have a right to things that perhaps do not have a right to have. Delta, and I am sure the labor union that its workers belong to are both to blame. Call me a bit cold hearted but the workers manufacturing the Unisaw and other products here in the US are over paid plain and simple. Delta could probably compete with a great product if it was not strangled with overpaying its workers. While the workers probably have been loyal and know their craft well, Delta has deminishing returns on its investment of employees. Simply put, Delta could compete and build a better product, if it could pay the employees what they are "really" worth. Lets get real here. These tools are way behind the technology curve when it comes to needing "know how" to manufacture them. The simple solution here is to simply pay the workers what they are really worth so that Delta can compete or Tax the hell out of the imports like the import automobiles are taxed.

Again I totally agree, but I would rather win the war that has been declared against us rather than loose because we were the only ones following the rules.
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Leon wrote:

So what exactly is the tax rate on import automobiles?
And I guess the Japanese workers are also overpaid--the Japanese are moving jobs to other countries with lower labor costs too.
How about the labor in the Third World is just _under_ paid? Because what happens is that as soon as one of those countries gets any kind of real economy going the labor rates climb right up to something approximating First World levels.

In war, rule number 1: Survive. That has to be the first priority.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
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Rather like taking a saber to a modern day fire fight and saying they don't fight fair isn't it? If you go to a street fight, best not to expect Marquis of Queensbury rules.
Bill in New Mexico
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Looking at it the other way, tho, it's kind of hard to take the moral high ground and declare the other side to be evil and odious, when our leadership appears to be just as lacking in moral standing as the enemy.
Most of us would prefer to be able to say "we're better than them" rather than "it's OK for me because they did it first".
John
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I agree. But we were the ones that were attacked. That changes everything when it comes to war. We really do not want to loose the war. I personally would rather not have Bin Laudens dream come true. Remember the old saying, all is fair in love and war.
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Really? We were attacked by Iraq? When? Must not have made the evening news that day. I know, they coulda- mighta- maybe- well it's possible they were thinking about making weapons of mass destruction 'n such, but we invaded them. They never attacked us.
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So uh,,, you believe that Iraq was totally inocent, had nothing to do with, did not help in any way, those that attacked us. The attempted assignation on Bush Sr. does not count? I guess I look at all things in general and come up with the obvious.
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"Leon" wrote in message

You can't win here, Leon ... but you can at the polls, where it counts. Just make damn sure you do.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 5/15/04
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Just
I know... In Know...
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Yes, I believe there is no proof that Iraq provided any aid at all to the 9/11 attackers. Do you have any proof to the contrary?
The attempt on Bush Sr was 1993. We already bombed the Iraqis in retaliation for that. See http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/?020930fr_archive02 . Seems a bit like ancient history, doesn't it?
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I use tha analogy that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, smells like a duck, it must be a duck. Not everything in this world appears as black and white. Some times you have to rely on life experiences to make your decisions. Iraq had its chance to avoid problems and it chose to ignore that chance.

And still this mess lingers because we did not do then what we are doing now.
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The radio audio clip I heard a year ago still echos, Dubya saying "He tried to kill my Dad" but I heard 'Daddy'!
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:56:54 GMT, "Leon"

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I agree that not everything is black and white. But faulty logic like yours is pretty obvious to spot. The fact is that our stated reasons for going to war were bogus. Our intelligence on Iraq was all screwed up. We have a bunch of guys running the government who think that pretty much everything "looks like a duck."

I must have missed the part of Bush's election campaign where he promised he would invade Iraq for what happened in 1993. If he had really told the people that was his plan, somehow I don't think he would be President now.
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Leon responds:

Yeah, in this particular instance, since the attack was based on what was presumably going on in the field of WMDs in the immediate months before the attack, Iraq was totally innocent. There seems to have been no al-Quaeda involvement until recent months, which, no matter how you choose to tilt it, doesn't ring true in tying Saddass Insane to the act.
When did Bush Sr. have an assassination attempt made on his life during his son's reign?
Charlie Self "The test and the use of man's education is that he finds pleasure in the exercise of his mind." Jacques Barzun
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You might ask the pilots who patrolled the no-fly zones while dodging SAMs if they were ever attacked. Is repeatedly firing missiles at our aircraft an act or war?
todd
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On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:52:07 -0500, "Todd Fatheree"

Iraq didn't "repeatedly fire missiles at our aircraft" - they didn't have them to spare. During the "no fly" phase, any Iraqi SA radar that went as far as illuminating a target (and that's about as far as they got) found itself attacked.
--
Smert' spamionam

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On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 13:38:57 +0100, Andy Dingley wrote:

Iraq shot at US and British aircraft in the no fly zones mostly with AAA, but there most certainly were SA missiles fired also:
http://fas.org/news/iraq/1999/02 / http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/07/25/iraq.attack /
-Doug
--
"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples
then you and I will still each have one apple.
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