OT (kinda) - Hardi Panel Siding w/o sheeting

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We are planning construction of a garden shed to store garden tractor, yard tools, and "stuff" (and regain use of my garage shop). We are considering Smart Siding, Hardi Panel and T-11 (T1-11). Like the looks of T-11 but have been unable to find pressure treated siding used on some factory built buildings.
The Hardi panel looks good but their installation instructions require a moisture barrier. This is a utility building and the siding will also serve as sheeting. No interior finish. Will the cement fiber panel hold up to long term use without sheeting and moisture barrier? I have used a product similar to Smart and the building looks good after 25 years but there is concern with Hardi.
Any Experience?
RonB
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On 10/4/10 3:31 PM, RonB wrote:

I put that stuff on the shed I built, 10 years ago. I nailed in directly to the 2x4 framing with nothing else on the inside or outside. I never even painted the exterior.
It's the same today, physically and cosmetically, as the day I installed it, except for some staining from mud and grass on the outside from weed-eating and rain splash.
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"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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I would not use Hardi without sheathing. Never used SmartSide, though that seems like a good product. Treated T-1-11 is available around here, but I don't recall if it was a LP, GP or Weyerhauser product. Call around and ask who stocks treated plywood siding. The manufacturers are trying to brand their stuff to differentiate theirs from others, so asking for T1-11, while technically correct, might be confusing some of the younger guys.
R
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On 10/4/10 4:00 PM, RicodJour wrote:

Why? Unless the stuff has drastically changed in 10 years, you don't need to be over sheathing for a shed. The stuff on my shed is about the thickness and strength of 1/4 plywood, probably a bit stronger and *definitely* much more stable than plywood or OSB sheathing.
--

-MIKE-

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While the 2009 IRC does allow direct attachement, I rarely ignore the manufacturer's instructions. Whether it's a house or a shed, if it fails it ain't good.

Shed walls generally take more abuse than a house's walls, stuff is banged up against the walls, etc. Wind and other natural acts (unnatural acts...?) don't differentiate between a residence and a storage building. They're equal opportunity destroyers. That's not necessarily a big problem, depending on where the shed is, and it can be dealt with by installing let-in bracing (old school, but fast enough and it looks really cool), or by using metal strapping on the diagonal in the corners. Like this (bottom left corner):
http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/images/ICODA2009061607403503389.jpg
But as Ron didn't mention where he is, it would be foolish to sell him on an idea that might not work in his area.
You are speaking from a "But that's how I did it and it's fine!" view point. I'm not arguing your personal experience, but standard construction, and particularly the manufacturer's instructions, probably shouldn't be ignored for little reason. I've seen more than a few fiber cement installations that suffered from elephantiasis due to inattention to detail. Frankly I'm surprised that your shed has held up without paint (also no caulk?), as required by the manufacturer, for so long. Perhaps you're one of the lucky ones, but I tend to doubt if you hit 00 on the roulette wheel that you'd tell everyone to bet 00 every time, right?
Ron also said he liked the looks of T1-11, so I'd think that should count for something, no? Plywood siding goes up faster, is cheaper, structurally stronger and looks just fine. So where's the problem?
R
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On 10/4/10 5:04 PM, RicodJour wrote:

http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/images/ICODA2009061607403503389.jpg
I think you're trying way over engineer a shed. Everything I've seen on their site speaks about residential construction, not a storage shed.

Again, why are you bringing up manufacturer's instructions that relate to residential installations? Why would I want caulk on a shed? If water runs off, that's enough to keep my stuff dry. In any shed, unless it has HVAC, the temperature and humidity is the same on the inside as the outside. I actually like some airflow in and out of a shed to keep it from turning into a greenhouse in the summer. This can be accomplished with open eaves.
I'm not lucky. Nor are the thousands of other people who put these up as kits from 84 lumber.

The Hardi Panel I put up looks just like T1-11.

I never said there was a problem with plywood. I said it wasn't necessary under the Hardiboard. If you're going to put up plywood, just put up T1-11 and have it be structural. If you're going to put up Hardi... for a shed... you don't need plywood, too.
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As I mentioned, loads and the elements don't differentiate between a shed and any other structure, so why do you? I don't build to minimum anything. Life's too short to work with crappy tools, do crappy work or build just-acceptable. Our opinions may vary on this.

Why would you want caulk on a shed? Hmm, I guess for the same reason that you'd want paint on Hardi-anything.

Ah, that explains things. I don't build from kits...at least I haven't since my Erector set days.

...in your opinion. This is the same opinion that leaves Hardi unpainted. You said your shed was a store-bought kit. Were all of the Hardipanel pieces pre-cut with sealed edges?
You're happy with what you built, as you should be, and that's fine with me. My issue is that you're glossing over issues, and have cut some corners, which makes some of your advice suspect.
R
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Thanks for good comments so far.
I didn't mention our location and that is a factor. We are in the SE corner of Kansas, very close to the Ozarks. High humidity is a concern. Termites too, but will treat for them.
I built a slightly smaller shed 20-25 years ago, using Masonite, vertical-look sheeting; and was concerned about interior impacts. That material is probably much less impact resistant than Smart panels. I installed a 2X4 "bumper strip" around the interior at about tractor, wheelbarrow, tiller height. Some of the rest was protected by shelving. Will do the same here.
I took a look at a demo video on LP's web site last night that kinda got my attention regarding impact resistance of Smart panels vs concrete fiber:

http://www.youtube.com/LPBuildingProducts#p/u/11/ta8Ymn_sExk

Kinda helped me decide about un-backed cement board. Some of LP's other info and videos have me leaning toward Smart Panel. The treatments they used during manufacture do provide a good deal of termite and rot resistance. However, it is clear they are concerned with moisture intrusion beyond the outer facing. T-11 is also a good product but in the rural area where we are located, I might have to drive more than 100 miles to get pressure treated material; and then I am still looking at a 3-5 year cleaning and re-staining cycle. Heading in to retirement and that might get tedious in 10 or 15 years.
Thanks again for input and more is appreciated.
RonB
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On 10/5/10 11:13 AM, RonB wrote:

excellent demonstration.
--

-MIKE-

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In article <858a6e31-4747-4f8d-af23-6c33c5c54219

Whoa. STOP. Stain is not the way to low maintenance and there is absoutely nothing about T1-11 that makes stain preferable to paint on it. You can't stain hardipanel and you can't stain smart panel, so why would you want to stain T1-11?
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On 10/5/10 9:09 AM, RicodJour wrote:

Who said anything about crappy work? Are you insulating your shed? Are you putting drywall up in the inside? Why not, if "loads and the elements don't differentiate between a shed and any other structure?"

Ohhh, we're taking the arrogant approach, are we? If you must know, after designing and building my own home and moving to another, having a truckload of crap to store, I was a bit stressed out and wanted the fastest, dumbest manner in which to get my $h!t stored so I could get to the rest of why we moved in the first place.
The other house additions I've designed and built for friends weren't done from kits either, if that helps you come down from that pedestal.

All I'm saying is I have a shed out there with hardipanel as the only structural sheathing and it's as solid as the day I put it up, 10yrs ago. Mileage may vary, but if a guy just wants to keep rain of his mower and shovels, he can save a lot of time and money by not building it like a house.
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Whichever siding you use, I would recommend installing a moisture barrier. Two rolls of felt won't break you. Also, build it with walls at least 10' high, i.e., for some attic space. Exterior sheeting is 8', so put a 2' skirt at the bottom, with a drip edge between the skirt and the higher full sheet/panel... see pic. If the bottom ever rots or gets damaged, all you'll have to replace is the bottom skirt section.... not have to mess with a full sheet/panel. If applicable, cut the skirt upper and lower edges at 30, as with the lower edge of the upper full sheet. Screw the skirt onto the framing, easier to remove, if need be. One of my garages has had untreated T1-11 for 20 yrs.... still in good shape. Prior to installing the skirt, I primed and painted the 30 cuts and about 10" (a paint roller width) up the back side. 3/4" nap roller for the rough T1-11, hand brush it smooth... goes faster than you think. Caulk the butting edges of each sheet. Caulk the seams/joints of your drip edge/ sheeting.
The bottom edge of the skirt, cut at 30, doesn't allow water wicking across an otherwise flat bottom and up the back side. A 12" galvanized strip, behind the skirt and slightly lower than the bottom edge, will help keep out any moisture, also... but I'm not sure of your foundation for warranting this gal. strip.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/4733385477 / ....Detailed pics can be readily gotten, if need be.
Sonny
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....Detailed pics can be readily gotten, if need be.
Gotta agree with using a moisture barier to keep the contents dry. My shed went through Hurricane Ike a bouple of years ago and not a drop of water came in. I did however use the more expensive Tyvek sheathing over tar paper. I used the Tyvek over tar paper for two reasons, I did not want to smell the tar smell inside the shed on a hot summer day and the Tyvek is white not black, that helps the interior to be lighter inside when the door is the only source of light.
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Well, you certainly know what you're doing, Leon. Excellent advice.
R
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On 10/5/2010 8:05 AM, Leon wrote:

I thought this conversation sounded familiar, googled and the below came up.
http://www.diyprojects.info/bb/ftopic599.html
dejavu all over again ... from six years ago. And what got us working together on kitchens.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
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Correction, I chose Tyvek over tar paper, I did not use Tyvek on top of tar. That did not come out clearly, Imagine...
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wrote:

The way you're saying it, the tar paper is next to the studs and the building smells like tar. You meant to say tar paper over Tyvek, right? The layers are studs, tyvek, tarpaper, siding, in order of installation.
-- Know how to listen, and you will profit even from those who talk badly. -- Plutarch
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No, I meant to say that there was NO tar paper, I only used Tyvek. Given a choice of which one to use I chose Tyvek over tar paper. The layers are studs, Tyvek, then siding.
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Leon: > I did not want to smell the tar smell inside the shed on a hot summer day...
I thought dust, spider webs and dirt dauber nests seals off that tar smell from the work area....
Sonny
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wrote:

So do insulation and finished inside walls. They also make the place a lot nicer place to visit in the middle of summer or dead of winter.
-- Know how to listen, and you will profit even from those who talk badly. -- Plutarch
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