OT - Is this representative of US public opinion? UK Newspaper Front Page

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Al Reid wrote:

Well no crap, that's why we should have flat tax too, make the upper echelon pay their fair share. We agree on this 100%

I will not bore you with my education about this, but I do have more than enough.

Ooooookayyyyy.... I'll take your word for it :-). Seriously, maybe we disagree because, in the context of your flat-tax argument, some people would be taxed more, some less (this is the "lower taxes" part). The increased revenue from those who would be taxed more would more than make up the lost revenue from those who would be taxed less. I certainly buy that.
--
gabriel

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On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:03:45 +0000, gabriel wrote:

A flat tax would result in the upper "echelons" paying less than they currently pay and the lower wage earners paying more than they currently pay. Most flat tax proposals exempt some initial amount of earnings to ease the burden on low income earners.
-Doug
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Doug Winterburn wrote:

Sorry, but rich people pay peanuts. If you want to believe they pay their share, that's fine, but even some rich people, like Warren Buffet, think they should be paying their fair share (he was against the "farm- saving" estate tax elimination [as was Bill Gates] and was against the supid frozen property taxes in California).
If a millionnaire sets up a charitable non-profit fund for the benefit of his family, then gives all his money to the fund, how much does he pay in taxes? Nothing, because he donated everything to charity. I know it's not that simple, but that's the idea.
Get rid of the loopholes and instill a flat tax!
LOL, I'm sounding like a para-revolutionary idiot!
--
gabriel

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On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 16:37:41 +0000, gabriel wrote:

On this, I agree.
-Doug
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Doug Winterburn wrote:

Just trying to keep it light-hearted... It's not like this discussion will change anything.
So hopefully no one feels insulted by all this nonsense.
After all, we're all woodworkers and this is a woodworking group, right?
--
gabriel

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Woodworking??? Who woulda thunk it.

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Peanuts? In 2001 the:
Top 10% Paid 68.2% of Federal Taxes Top 5% Paid 56.6% Top 1% Paid 35.9%
To suggest that they are not paying their fair share is obsurd.
How would you like to pay the same percentage of your income in taxes?

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Al Reid wrote:

Ah, and you bring up a common fallacy when looking at the issue this way: This does NOT suggest that the rich (or high-earners, more appropriately) pay their fair share of taxes, it merely shows what the numbers of paid taxes add up to. Where's the column for pre-deduction gross income?
In other words, on paper, the top 1% earned $1402B, and paid $361B in taxes, or 26%. This seems fair at first glance, doesn't it? What the numbers do not show, is what the true raw income is of that top 1%. The $1402B number is _after_ all the loopholes and deductions (ie, charitable donations to their own non-profits), and also after all attempts to divert earnings through other channels (corporations, off-shore, etc...).
There is an entire mechanism in place to keep the numbers you gave as they are: Giving the impression that the rich pay their fair share. Tax shelters, finance organizers, loophole artists/consultants, etc... they were even highlighted on a recent issue of BusinessWeek, ironically, one of the loophole artists highlighted in the article made a call for the loopholes to be closed!

Cammon you know you are comparing apples to oranges. The numbers you gave are not percentages of income paid as taxes. Actually, though, I do pay a higher percentage of my earnings than the top 1%, as shown above...
--
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You are misreading the data!!! That is, the top 1% of tax payers are payong 35.9% of the burdon, NOT paying an effective tax rat of 35.9%.

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Al Reid wrote:

I meant as shown above on my statement: "In other words, on paper, the top 1% earned $1402B, and paid $361B in taxes, or 26%."
--
gabriel

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gabriel wrote:

yes you do!!!
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(tapping on the desktop wondering if I really want to get involved in this thread....awww...what the heck..)
no numbers or percentages...no demand for fairness...just an observation...if I wasn't working for a rich man I probably wouldn't be working. So please...by all means Mr. Rich Man, take your loopholes of which my salary is part of and just keep passing it on down. Best advice I've ever heard was stop worrying about what you pay in taxes and worry about what you make in income.
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Something I've learned in my years on this earth, not everyone is like you.
Dennis Vogel
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snipped-for-privacy@no--spam.com says...

How much do you think is their fair share? According to IRS reports, the top 10% of wage earners pay 65% of income taxes, while they only earn 43% of all income. The top 5% of wage earners pay 53% of income taxes while earning only 32% of all income. The top 50% of all wage earners pay 96% of all taxes, while earning 86% of all the income. At what point are you going to be satisfied that the upper echelon is paying their "fair" share?
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Mark & Juanita wrote:

Is that what they actually pay, or is that what they owe before their accountants start their work?
Also, your figures don't state what percentage of income these wage earners pay in taxes.
These 'figures' you've posted really mean nothing. Their a small part of the story. I see them as misleading.
--
Mark

N.E. Ohio
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On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:34:07 +0000, Mark wrote:

In an attempt to lead a horse to water, try here:
http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/index.html
I know you don't want to believe the information you will find here, but try to open your eyes.
-Doug
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Doug Winterburn wrote:

Yeah, OK,
How about posting the link directly to your cite, I could wade through the IRS site all day before finding what you want me to see.
Or is that your point?
This comes under the trick of making me do the work of proving your argument.
It's not a java site, you can post a direct link.

What I see is allot of income being hidden.
--
Mark

N.E. Ohio
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On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:35:21 +0000, Mark wrote:

The information you don't want to believe is in this document:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/00inrate.pdf
You will observe that the top income earners are paying a higher and higher percentage of total income tax over time.
-Doug
-Doug
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Doug Winterburn wrote:

... a statistic you will find to be much less meaningful than the percentage of taxes paid on declared income. You have to calculate this yourself from the same document.
What does this statistic prove, anyway: "the top income earners are paying a higher and higher percentage of total income tax over time." I cannot find a significance other than "there are lot of rich people in the USA."
--
gabriel

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On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 19:52:54 +0000, gabriel wrote:

It points out that they are doing more than their fair share. I hope the trend of more and more people migrating to higher income brackets continues, in fact the more millionaires, the better. That's what this country is all about.
-Doug
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