OT Health Care

I'm just curious about the health care systems in Canada & Great Britain. They are currently running TV ads here in the States saying that Canadians and Brits are refused certain health care or have months and even years of delays before they receive treatments for some illnesses.

I for one, as an American, believe the is total BS put out by the Insurance Companies and the Pharmaceutical Companies of the U.S.

I would like to hear from some of the Canadian and British readers of the sawdust wreck about what it is really like you you respective countries when it comes to health care.

Cooniedawg

Reply to
Cooniedog
Loading thread data ...

On 5/13/2009 9:31 AM Cooniedog spake thus:

Good questions. I suggest renting a copy of Michael Moore's "Sicko" for a good comparative look at health-care systems across the world.

Reply to
David Nebenzahl

As Upscale noted, there's a lot of rationing for lack of better nomenclature I've observed in talking w/ business acquaintances where I've done onsite support work and gotten to know them quite well. They're quite close to US border so it is routine for them to simply forego the Canadian system and drive to Minot, ND or other border towns for routine care, paying out of pocket rather than wait. That's for the kids have ear ache, etc. The parents mostly just tough it out has been my observation.

That doesn't address the problem that although it's been a few years now since I retired so there may have been some improvement but the last time I was on site they were in a plant outage so had fair amount of overtime pay in his packet. That period the total witholding was over

50% of his gross.

The other thing I have observed over the last 20 years or so is that in rural US, the primary place from which we can recruit physicians to come to small, under-served areas that are not popular places for US-educated doctors other than SE Asia and the South American locations is Canada. In the local health care system in this relative to other places within

100-200 miles but still small by city standards place almost one-quarter of the doctors are expatriate Canadians. They come despite the seeming lack of cultural amenities and non-idyllic climate primarily because they have simply become fed up w/ "The System". When one contemplates that these folks are packing up and moving permanently from their birthplace because the burdens of practicing medicine in the US are so much lighter on them, that's pretty telling in my book to follow the direction from which these folks have come isn't a really good idea.

--

Reply to
dpb

I suggest that if you rent it you do so for a good example of propaganda.

Reply to
J. Clarke

Thanks for taking the time to attempt an answer to, as you say, a very difficult question.

Your response is, IMO, erudite, and, since it is based on personal experience, its value is therefore increased.

Reply to
Swingman

I'll answer your question the best I can, but it's definitely not a woodworking question. It's also a difficult question to answer. It's true, that in some cases, there's an extremely large waiting list for treatment. It's not an outright refusal of healthcare, just a fact that someone may have to wait years for treatment. Some might argue that it's another way to refuse help. Many Canadians who can afford it, choose to go to the USA and pay for treatment they might have to wait years for in Canada. That part is certainly true.

There are certain cases where some individuals have been denied healthcare primarily on the basis that there's only so much money to go around and that it's considered more prudent to direct funds where the greatest number of individuals can be treated. A simple example of this (and many of these cases are in the courts) is funding for special education for autistic children. I believe the Ontario courts ruled that funding ends for those children six years or older even though it's agreed that they'd still benefit from this education. I'm not prepared to argue for or against the morality of any of this.

formatting link
example and something I consider to be health care is dentistry. It's not covered by general healthcare anywhere that I'm aware of in Canada, yet it's agreed that poor dental care can result in a host of diseases ~ diabetes for example. So, yes simple example would confirm that some types of healthcare are not funded.

So, maybe the answer to your question is yes to both questions. But it's too complicated question to answer outright. There's always going to be exceptions to every argument and there's always a host of variables to consider when answering it. Personally, I have a host of medical difficulties. I'm not going to go into details, but for the problems I've had and currently have, I feel I have a great deal of experience with the Ontario healthcare system. Does that make me an expert? I wouldn't think so, but for the average person walking around, I think my experiences eclipse most of what the general public has experienced. Anyways, that's the way I feel whether it's factually true or not.

Why the question?

Reply to
Upscale

That's the dumbest suggestion I've ever heard! He's about as accurate as Tim Geithner on his Income Taxes.

Reply to
evodawg

I will admit that the system of medical care in the UK is far from perfect(especially since the Thatcher administration's interference), but it seems to be many, many times better than the US model for those who cannot afford private health care.

Reply to
mr fuxit

On 5/13/2009 12:34 PM evodawg spake thus:

So please treat us to a short analysis of where, exactly, Moore is wrong about the badness of the U.S. health-care system as compared to other countries. I look forward to this.

Reply to
David Nebenzahl

Won't even waste my time. Just keep watching another one of the made for profit docudrama and claim its FACT! Moore is a buffoon!

Reply to
evodawg

On 5/13/2009 12:49 PM evodawg spake thus:

I see you've chosen the Hannity/Limbaugh, et al, method of assertion by bellowing--"it's true because I SAY IT IS and you're just a liberal idiot".

Thanks for playing.

Reply to
David Nebenzahl

If you say so then it must be true!

Reply to
evodawg

Thanks Karl. Now, how much you want to bet that one of my other "discussions" is going produce the comment that my illnesses have made me hate the world and I'm out to get everybody? :)

BTW, this summer I've been commissioned to produce benches for the trestle picnic table I built last summer. No money involved, but I'll get invited over to a good half dozen outdoor parties. They will be pretty close to half size copies of the table itself. I figure with such a nice looking design, why play with perfection. :) I'll post them when they're made.

Reply to
Upscale

One problem that I see is that everyone wants the latest and greatest treatment, which generally translates to much more expensive. If a treatment is 5% better, but 10x the price, should we as a population go for it? It's easy to say no, until the patient is someone you know.

Health care is locally governed, so there are going to be regional differences. For reference, I'm in my 30s, and live in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada, a city of a bit over 200000 people.

Wait times have been an issue in the past and continue to be an issue for certain types of treatment--generally expensive/complicated things like MRI, cancer, heart, hip/knee replacement, cataract surgery, etc. My father-in-law had hip surgery and did need to wait a bit. I've heard anecdotally that these times are coming down around here though.

Usually it takes a few days to a week if I want to book an appointment with my family doctor, but for more urgent things I can go to a clinic or to the Emergency ward at the hospital.

I broke two fingers while traveling, and received both physiotherapy and occupational therapy to help get mobility and strength back in those fingers. No delays in getting treatment. Similarly, getting in to see a chiropractor is easy.

My wife and I just had our first child. No significant delays, generally good care. We did pay for a doula to help us through the process, but midwives are covered in some areas and that might be an option for next time.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Friesen

Some areas of the US will "forgive" college loans in return for a specified number of years serving in an area with insufficient doctors.

Maybe that's something you can steal from us? ;-)

John

Reply to
news

Depending upon the answer, they do have a Lee Valley in Saskatoon, so you could move there.

Just to put it back on topic. ;-)

Reply to
FrozenNorth

Well said. And I think those two succinct sentences cover all methods and attempts at subsidized health care.

I am and have been very actively involved in the care of my elderly, sickly parents. I was astonished that Medicare/Medicaid does not cover glasses for the elderly. You gotta be kidding me... no glasses for those old, weak eyes? Nor does it cover hearing aids.

In fact, when my Mom PASSED (as in totally gone) out at her birthday party at her favorite restaurant, my parents just got bill that Medicare/Medicaid refused to pay. It wasn't the resultant hospital bill, it was the >transport< bill to get a 79 year old woman with type III diabetes and high blood pressure to the hospital. Even though she could not stand up and had to be wheeled to transit, M/M determined that someone could have taken her to the hospital.

It goes on and on. The system is inconsistent, out of touch, and filled with more levels of bureaucracy than can be imagined.

But, on the other hand, last year my folks paid about $2500 for a pacemaker and defibrillator to be installed. This included 8 days in the hospital, the surgeries and all fees, and a month in rehab with physical therapy. The hospital and the M/M team responded immediately and Mom was in the hospital and scheduled for surgery the day she went in for a "dizzy spell".

So good work there. They saved her life. And the resultant bills were somewhere along the $140,000 range with the rehab and follow up visits for the next 6 months.

In discussing these matters with a visiting friend from Montreal, he was able to shine a light on the health care system in his part of the world.

We in the USA all KNOW that everywhere else in the world that the health care systems of all other countries (including Cuba!) is all sunshine and lollipops. Everyone gets whatever they want, whenever they need it, and all aspects of their health and well being are covered immediately and paid in full by the state.

According to my Canadian friend, not so.

Here is life in Canada according to his report, not mine, I am simply sharing what he told me:

- if you have a terrible cough or cold, the wait to see is doctor is so long that you will be well by the time they give you your appt. (a little humor there, he is sure they do this on purpose)

- if you have an emergency like broken bones, a terrible bleeding cut, or something that requires immediate treatment, you are treated well. He would know, he makes commercial institutional furniture so those things happen

- if you have something that can "wait" like an unidentified pain somewhere, it will indeed wait. Sometimes for months

- re-hab and after care are a little thin. He cites his broken leg that was broken in 2-3 places when he was mountain biking (must be something in the CA water - he's 54) to his favorite fly fishing area. After they took the cast off, his rehab was a printout of exercises, and they told him to stay off of it until he felt more comfortable. He said it was the same when his wife was hurt in a non life threatening car wreck

- according to him, there are a lot of questions about the quality of care as well. Again, physicians are told to be mindful that there is only so much money in the system (see the aftercare comments) and not to spend the dough all in one or two places. He said there is a lot of "take two of these and call the office in the morning"

- wondering about the quality of care ties in to the fact that CA doctors seem to make about 1/3 or less the dough American doctors make. If you could make 2/3 more money for doing the same thing, it would be a powerful incentive to move somewhere else

- in the CA system, psychiatric help is almost non existent. He has a partner that has physician diagnosed bouts of chronic, severe depression. Yet, all he gets is pills. He said that to see his shrink, the guy calls, and it is 6 weeks to 2 months to get to see "his" doctor

- According to him, changing doctors is almost impossible. If you don't like the care you are getting, then you should go away. He cited many examples of this, and I was surprised until he explained. He told me that at one time you could change doctors, but that so many people went from one doctor to another (no charge, right?) until they finally found one to tell them what they wanted to hear that they system was too clogged

He told me that the CA system shines in two areas. First, it IS actually open to everyone, regardless of any conditions as long as they are Canadian. Second, if you have medium grade illness where you can take the time to schedule treatment, or an absolute screaming emergency the system works.

He has had two corrective surgeries that were non life threatening, and while he waited two+ months to get them, it went off well and had no problems (or a bill!).

He has never had problems when taking an employee to the emergency room with injuries from work. No 3 hour wait while they verify insurance, the company information, etc. Just take them in and they are treated. Try THAT here, construction guys!

Overall, he sees the CA model not being nearly as good as it was, and no improvement on the horizon. He expects it to get worse before it gets better due to the fact that small taxes to subsidize the system are extremely unpopular.

And like here, the conversation is never far away about what to do with the failing national health care system.

For me it was an enlightening discussion. And we both agreed, that both systems don't totally suck, but that both could be much better.

But where to start? How to do it?

Decades of appointing committees, making commitments, making health care a "priority" and all the other drivel from politicians has gone absolutely nowhere.

You have shared just a bit of your challenges here. And I am not being sarcastic... but just being able to understand the amount of paperwork and levels of people to be dealt with in your situation make you an expert in my opinion.

The health care system is a monster unto itself, no matter where you are. At this point, I know more about M/M than I ever thought there was to know. In the end, we still have to go to our extended care provider for counseling on what to do to make sure the folks care is covered. BUT... they cannot >tell< us what to do. They can only lay out options. If the are caught coaching or counseling us, they can lose the right to do business with M/M.

I have no idea what it would take to fix any of it. Personally, I don't believe it can be fixed. I think it's too far gone.

Obviously, this is something that has been on my mind...

Robert

Reply to
nailshooter41

Is this another argument brewing? Can I play? Mike Marlow says he won't play with me anymore so I need a new fight. :)

Just to keep this argument on woodworking, let's all carve toothpicks and start poking each other. Hey Mike, you can play too if you promise not to poke me too hard.

:)

Reply to
Upscale

One of the most rational responses I've seen on this issue so, of course, everyone will ignore it.

Reply to
LD

From Manitoba that runs health care a shade differently than Ontario, every sentence is more or less true. I'll add that for life threatening issues you get bumped forward but not in front of someone who is dieing faster than you. Unless you seem to be important like a weasel politician and his family or a sports player: then you go to front of the line and spare no expense. I have noticed that people with money go to the US, Mexico, or Europe because for cash up front, no one has to wait. And there are some procedues that have long lists because of resource allocations. And there are some things not covered because of extreme high costs. Getting bitten by a mountain (north slope) jumping spider from Peru comes to mind ): My doctor came up with that one.

Dental, eye glasses, hearing aids, and most drugs are not covered unless your in prison or on welfare where most all of it is covered. Lets face it - if you get sent to prison for life (8 yrs) we want you healthy enuff to do the time.

I once asked a dermatologist why it took so long and cost so much. He said the admin costs ran at about 85% and that doctors got the remaining 15%. I assume the 85 included hospital costs and that he wasn't slinging me a line.

If I sound a tad cynical over this it is because the system has inequities. We hire nurses part time and burn them out working double shifts. Somehow paying parttime overtime is cheaper that paying benefits. We don't allow private services to open shop because that would jeapardize publice health care and all the doctors would flock over to the dark side. When a small community raises money for an MRI machine we don't let it get hooked up because it wasn't budgeted for, it's in the wrong community, and we want things centralized. The list goes on.

Yes, there is a whole lot more to this and it gets complicated and it's not nessessarily about how much money, but more like who gets to touch the money first and dole it out.

Canadians want pay what the market will bear (if you can). Americans want pay what's fair (if you can get it). Seems we both want what the other has.

P
Reply to
cselby

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.