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Matt Stachoni wrote:

stable, it should be out of the box. I work with servers all day long and just want a system that works when i get home. I got tires of constantly working on my system when i could be doing something else. Imagine how little woodorking you would get done if you had to tweak your tools more than you used them. You also should now have to rebuild the machine, it should go a lot more than 8 months. I've only had two instances of spyware infections, both within the 6 months I was using XP, never had a virus since I had an Amiga in the early 90's. Despite having XP locked down tight stuff still managed to get it, it would probably be a decent OS if it didn't have IE stuck inside it. At the office we have a whole desktop team that downgraded everyone to XP and we have our machines reimaged about every 6 months, W2k was the most stable windows OS I have ever ran, it was getting close to unix like uptimes for me without any need to tweak it.
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Matt Stachoni wrote:

My tweaking days are over. I want the computer to disappear when I'm working on it. Since (now) I'm writing statistical apps for a genetics lab I've turned in my sysadmin hat. Hopefully forever. I just have to observe some conservative policies regarding network structure (in my own place) and secure comms for file transfers, and use by-default restrictive scripting policies in my browser, and the computer does that, it disappears.
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As opposed to the *nix* systems, which work out of the box without constant fiddling.

One of my busier servers hasn't been rebuilt, and hasn't been rebooted in (let's see...497+497+199= 1193 days). It was a sunday morning, and the reboot was due to a clumsy mistake, not a system problem.

Sure, but if you have to constantly tweak and adjust it, then that's a lot more screwing around than it should be.

Ah, so you're a fully-recovered sysadmin, then. A difficult state to get to.
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Dave Hinz wrote:

For me, it was a determination hard-won one Thanksgiving Day, around 6-7 years ago, when I spent my dinner getting yelled at by some third-party suit while trying to ensure Santa's cam stayed up for a large NY department store that everybody knows about in preparation for black friday...
Third party developers (two 3rd-party outfits involved), me on the west coast, managing (ugh. juggling!) Windows "servers" (and I'm being very liberal using that term) back east, because I said I'd be willing to manage the windows stuff. Whomever got that account for us shoulda been stuffed in the powersupply.
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Lovely. Not allowed to tell him to fuck off, I take it?

Yeah, that'd be enough to turn anyone off.

Oddly enough, our Linux boxes use exactly the same hardware as the Windows team's servers, and, well, guess which ones are stable.

Yowch. How's Shaftoe, by the way?
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On 12/21/2005 4:04 PM Dave Hinz mumbled something about the following:

Ours do too. The windows servers are just as stable as the linux servers. Don't get me wrong, I've been a UNIX admin for 20+ years, I hate windows, but I have to admit, that Win2k3 is pretty damn stable, especially if it is set up correctly.

Saying that UNIX just runs out of the box is bullshit. Any GOOD UNIX admin knows that there is tweaking to do to make a system run properly. If you've never run Oracle on a UNIX server, there are approx 20 system tweaks that need to be made to the server from an out of the box setup. Informix has another 20 tweaks that are different (well, some of the tweaks are the same). Yes, for the most part, UNIX will run right out of the box, so will Windows, but BOTH need tweaking to get them right. Anyone that tells you different is an idiot.
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Ah. They're working to get to 2K3 "real soon now". We just got NT 4.0 off the desktops.

Tweaking? Naah, once you find the recipe, it keeps working.

I'm really not interested in comparing resumes here, but let's just say that I'm comfortable with my experience, and making my statements based on it.

Yes, once. Well, once for dev, roll it up to QA, and then up to prod. But you don't have to babysit the damn thing and re-tweak the stack or whatever else.

You're missing the point. The tweaks you just mentioned are for apps - with Windows, you have to keep dicking around just to keep ahead of the OS.
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On 12/22/2005 8:40 AM Dave Hinz mumbled something about the following:

Same with Windows. We have a golden image we use for all of our OSes, be it Linux, AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, Windows, whatever. We don't do installs, we lay down images. For AIX, I have 4 different images based on the 4 different apps that we run on them. For Linux, I have 5 different images depending on what it's going to do. Windows, we have 3 different images, Solaris only 2 (one Solaris 9 and the other Solaris 2.7), and way too many HP-UX images (3 different baselines just for the hardware alone).

I've never babysit any of my systems, Windows or Unix unless I have a hardware problem. As many times as we go through patching of software or software upgrades (damn suits always want our apps do something different, even if it is going back to doing the exact same thing it did 3 versions ago), nothing stays static regardless of the OS it is running on.

No, I don't keep dicking around with it. Yes, there are a lot patches for Windows showing up as critical patches, but you would spend just as much time with Linux if you try to keep up with all the patches for it. When you are writing and hosting banking software, it doesn't matter what OS you are running, you have to keep one step ahead of ANY possible security hole, and that means patching a lot, be it Linux, AIX, Windows, FreeBSD, whatever.
Windows will run unpatched for long periods of time, just as will Linux, but I'm not going to trust your bank account to either of them having a security hole in them.
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Odinn wrote:

I'm pretty disappointed with w2k3. There are way too many hotfixes needed to get clustering running stable, about 1/2 are included in sp1 but there are still way too many fixes and tweaks to get clustering working close to as stable as w2k.
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On 12/22/2005 10:39 AM Eugene Nine mumbled something about the following:

I haven't tried clustering in W2k or W2k3. We tried it in HP-UX a few years ago, and never got it to work right (even had HP in trying to set it up). I prefer HACMP on AIX, it works right first time every time and is almost foolproof to setup.
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I'm almost sure I didn't start this... none of the arguments resemble anything I think I was commenting on. (tweaking for me is stuff that occurs after you've built your system and adopted your policies.)
Odinn wrote:

The problem is the purveyor of that has already superceded W2K and is determined to get you to "upgrade": the MS box of chocolates will leave you at the mercy of their marketing department's OS design choices. And Sony's.

Oracle needs entirely different configuration settings for each platform it is run upon, whether that be *nix flavored or otherwise. In addition each platform has different hooks giving you access to make those changes. Oracle as an example for platform comparisons would be better fit to discussions of scaling. Oracle is also a hugely complex system that has enough kitchen sink stuff in it to entirely replace most of the OS, bring home the bacon, and sharpen your edgetools.
Happy ChristmaHanaQuaanzikaa. (or however that goes...)
er (*pop* -- how'd that get in my cheek?)
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On 12/22/2005 2:42 PM Enoch Root mumbled something about the following:

And RedHat, or SuSE don't do the same? Hell, the cost of RH ES3 is as expensive as Win2k3, and they try to get you to upgrade from their previous version or they won't support you (we have about 20 $1200 a year support contracts with them on an earlier version and they are pushing us to upgrade).

We're really too small of a company to need to use Oracle HR/Financials, yet we have 3 Oracle DBA/Developers for a 1500 employee company to keep our HR/Financials running. We have 1 customer who uses our product with Oracle as the backend DB to our Personal Banking software. We've tried to get them to switch over to DB2 (our reference platform), but they want Oracle, so we charge them extra for it.

Happy Yule.
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Odinn wrote:

I don't know, I use Debian (a copy costs you (given a net install) exactly one writable CD). I'm almost certain* those other distributions aren't suffering the same design/marketing problems Windows is.
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On 12/23/2005 2:29 AM Enoch Root mumbled something about the following:

Try selling a platform to a bank without having support for every piece, hardware, OS, etc. It doesn't happen. They want assurance that if something fails, they have someone they can blame. Free OSes don't cut it if you don't have support.
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Odinn wrote:

Well the banks obviously should be buying a warm wool Red Hat.
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Our experience differs. At least in the mortgage industry...

Of course you have support. And if you have a problem where your boss encourages blamestorming rather than solving problems with the appropriate solutions, you need to upgrade your boss.
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On 12/23/2005 11:22 AM Dave Hinz mumbled something about the following:

Online banking is a lot different than something used by the mortgage companies internally. Firewalls in front of the web server, firewalls between the app server and the database with commuications via IPSec. OSes hardened. I'm sure you don't want your account to be hacked by someone else.
On top of the banks themselves, we have about 5 or 6 different audits due to some govt regulation (SOX, SEC, Some California thing, etc). I probably spend a good 60% of my time handling auditors (running scripts, answering questions, explaining why we do something one way instead of another) between the months of Sep and Dec when all these audits go on.
It's not my boss who encourages blaming, it's the banks who want assurance. They won't allow us to use Linux unless we pay for support on it, and only a small portion of the banks we host will even allow Linux (we host over 2000 banks online presense).
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... snip

I'm assuming that those banks don't allow XP either because of the direct door to Msoft that Msoft won't allow to be closed. I know that in my world that gave significant headaches to various groups.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 12:54:48 -0700, Mark & Juanita

ATMs were predominantly run on OS/2 for a very long time. IBM dropped support for OS/2 a couple of years ago and ATM networks started making the move to Microsoft Windows. I'm sure there are some *nix ATMs.
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On 12/24/2005 4:10 PM George Shouse mumbled something about the following:

Our ATM division has only recently started trying to use Windows, most are still running OS/2, but almost all development on them is Java.
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