stable, it should be out of the box. I work with servers all day long and
just want a system that works when i get home. I got tires of constantly
working on my system when i could be doing something else. Imagine how
little woodorking you would get done if you had to tweak your tools more
than you used them.
You also should now have to rebuild the machine, it should go a lot more
than 8 months.
I've only had two instances of spyware infections, both within the 6 months
I was using XP, never had a virus since I had an Amiga in the early 90's.
Despite having XP locked down tight stuff still managed to get it, it would
probably be a decent OS if it didn't have IE stuck inside it. At the
office we have a whole desktop team that downgraded everyone to XP and we
have our machines reimaged about every 6 months, W2k was the most stable
windows OS I have ever ran, it was getting close to unix like uptimes for
me without any need to tweak it.
My tweaking days are over. I want the computer to disappear when I'm
working on it. Since (now) I'm writing statistical apps for a genetics
lab I've turned in my sysadmin hat. Hopefully forever. I just have to
observe some conservative policies regarding network structure (in my
own place) and secure comms for file transfers, and use by-default
restrictive scripting policies in my browser, and the computer does
that, it disappears.
As opposed to the *nix* systems, which work out of the box without
One of my busier servers hasn't been rebuilt, and hasn't been rebooted
in (let's see...497+497+199= 1193 days). It was a sunday morning, and
the reboot was due to a clumsy mistake, not a system problem.
Sure, but if you have to constantly tweak and adjust it, then that's a
lot more screwing around than it should be.
Ah, so you're a fully-recovered sysadmin, then. A difficult state to
For me, it was a determination hard-won one Thanksgiving Day, around 6-7
years ago, when I spent my dinner getting yelled at by some third-party
suit while trying to ensure Santa's cam stayed up for a large NY
department store that everybody knows about in preparation for black
Third party developers (two 3rd-party outfits involved), me on the west
coast, managing (ugh. juggling!) Windows "servers" (and I'm being very
liberal using that term) back east, because I said I'd be willing to
manage the windows stuff. Whomever got that account for us shoulda been
stuffed in the powersupply.
On 12/21/2005 4:04 PM Dave Hinz mumbled something about the following:
Ours do too. The windows servers are just as stable as the linux
servers. Don't get me wrong, I've been a UNIX admin for 20+ years, I
hate windows, but I have to admit, that Win2k3 is pretty damn stable,
especially if it is set up correctly.
Saying that UNIX just runs out of the box is bullshit. Any GOOD UNIX
admin knows that there is tweaking to do to make a system run properly.
If you've never run Oracle on a UNIX server, there are approx 20
system tweaks that need to be made to the server from an out of the box
setup. Informix has another 20 tweaks that are different (well, some of
the tweaks are the same). Yes, for the most part, UNIX will run right
out of the box, so will Windows, but BOTH need tweaking to get them
right. Anyone that tells you different is an idiot.
On 12/22/2005 8:40 AM Dave Hinz mumbled something about the following:
Same with Windows. We have a golden image we use for all of our OSes,
be it Linux, AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, Windows, whatever. We don't do
installs, we lay down images. For AIX, I have 4 different images based
on the 4 different apps that we run on them. For Linux, I have 5
different images depending on what it's going to do. Windows, we have 3
different images, Solaris only 2 (one Solaris 9 and the other Solaris
2.7), and way too many HP-UX images (3 different baselines just for the
I've never babysit any of my systems, Windows or Unix unless I have a
hardware problem. As many times as we go through patching of software
or software upgrades (damn suits always want our apps do something
different, even if it is going back to doing the exact same thing it did
3 versions ago), nothing stays static regardless of the OS it is running on.
No, I don't keep dicking around with it. Yes, there are a lot patches
for Windows showing up as critical patches, but you would spend just as
much time with Linux if you try to keep up with all the patches for it.
When you are writing and hosting banking software, it doesn't matter
what OS you are running, you have to keep one step ahead of ANY possible
security hole, and that means patching a lot, be it Linux, AIX, Windows,
Windows will run unpatched for long periods of time, just as will Linux,
but I'm not going to trust your bank account to either of them having a
security hole in them.
I'm pretty disappointed with w2k3. There are way too many hotfixes needed
to get clustering running stable, about 1/2 are included in sp1 but there
are still way too many fixes and tweaks to get clustering working close to
as stable as w2k.
On 12/22/2005 10:39 AM Eugene Nine mumbled something about the following:
I haven't tried clustering in W2k or W2k3. We tried it in HP-UX a few
years ago, and never got it to work right (even had HP in trying to set
it up). I prefer HACMP on AIX, it works right first time every time and
is almost foolproof to setup.
I'm almost sure I didn't start this... none of the arguments resemble
anything I think I was commenting on. (tweaking for me is stuff that
occurs after you've built your system and adopted your policies.)
The problem is the purveyor of that has already superceded W2K and is
determined to get you to "upgrade": the MS box of chocolates will leave
you at the mercy of their marketing department's OS design choices. And
Oracle needs entirely different configuration settings for each platform
it is run upon, whether that be *nix flavored or otherwise. In addition
each platform has different hooks giving you access to make those
changes. Oracle as an example for platform comparisons would be better
fit to discussions of scaling. Oracle is also a hugely complex system
that has enough kitchen sink stuff in it to entirely replace most of the
OS, bring home the bacon, and sharpen your edgetools.
Happy ChristmaHanaQuaanzikaa. (or however that goes...)
er (*pop* -- how'd that get in my cheek?)
On 12/22/2005 2:42 PM Enoch Root mumbled something about the following:
And RedHat, or SuSE don't do the same? Hell, the cost of RH ES3 is as
expensive as Win2k3, and they try to get you to upgrade from their
previous version or they won't support you (we have about 20 $1200 a
year support contracts with them on an earlier version and they are
pushing us to upgrade).
We're really too small of a company to need to use Oracle HR/Financials,
yet we have 3 Oracle DBA/Developers for a 1500 employee company to keep
our HR/Financials running. We have 1 customer who uses our product with
Oracle as the backend DB to our Personal Banking software. We've tried
to get them to switch over to DB2 (our reference platform), but they
want Oracle, so we charge them extra for it.
I don't know, I use Debian (a copy costs you (given a net install)
exactly one writable CD). I'm almost certain* those other distributions
aren't suffering the same design/marketing problems Windows is.
email not valid
* RH uses a custom kernel that is Open Source and therefore probably
On 12/23/2005 2:29 AM Enoch Root mumbled something about the following:
Try selling a platform to a bank without having support for every piece,
hardware, OS, etc. It doesn't happen. They want assurance that if
something fails, they have someone they can blame. Free OSes don't cut
it if you don't have support.
On 12/23/2005 11:22 AM Dave Hinz mumbled something about the following:
Online banking is a lot different than something used by the mortgage
companies internally. Firewalls in front of the web server, firewalls
between the app server and the database with commuications via IPSec.
OSes hardened. I'm sure you don't want your account to be hacked by
On top of the banks themselves, we have about 5 or 6 different audits
due to some govt regulation (SOX, SEC, Some California thing, etc). I
probably spend a good 60% of my time handling auditors (running scripts,
answering questions, explaining why we do something one way instead of
another) between the months of Sep and Dec when all these audits go on.
It's not my boss who encourages blaming, it's the banks who want
assurance. They won't allow us to use Linux unless we pay for support
on it, and only a small portion of the banks we host will even allow
Linux (we host over 2000 banks online presense).
I'm assuming that those banks don't allow XP either because of the direct
door to Msoft that Msoft won't allow to be closed. I know that in my world
that gave significant headaches to various groups.
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 12:54:48 -0700, Mark & Juanita
ATMs were predominantly run on OS/2 for a very long time. IBM
dropped support for OS/2 a couple of years ago and ATM networks
started making the move to Microsoft Windows. I'm sure there
are some *nix ATMs.
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