OT: Global warming deniers debunked

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Maybe in Alphen, not in Wageningen, but then we were at least an hour east of you ...
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Han
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Yea... we were an hour closer to English weather than you. <G> "Must be summer, the fog is warming up."
(aside) Funniest remark I heard about 'the local weather' was from a Newfoundlander who said: "If the wind ever stops blowing here, everybody is going to fall down."
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Reminds me of our bicycle camping trip through the Netherlands. We were somewhere in Friesland and pedaling mightily against the rather heavy breeze on our rented 10-speed bikes, when a couple of not so young ladies in black (of course) passed us on their single speed what is now called "omafietsen". Was that ever embarrassing. Oma is grandma fiets is bicycle omafiets is <http://preview.tinyurl.com/3ofx4do
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Han
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How many die from exposure during the winter vs. summer?
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Not many if any. Winters in western Europe are less severe than in New York, for instance. Less cold, less snow. For the most time. Of course in inland Germany, Switserland, Northern Italy and generally Alps things depend on altitude, and I'm sure exposure happens to those not prepared.
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Han
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Worldwide.
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For now, Wait until global warming causes the Gulf Stream to be diverted.
For the most time. Of course

Or too poor to afford warm clothing and shelter -- as happens in large US cities, but NOT in Europe, where human beings still come (for the most part) before corporate profiteers and their political lackeys. Of course such a policy is rank Socialism, to be condemned by the Mad Dogs and THEIR lobbyists.
HB

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On 9/2/2011 4:35 PM, ChairMan wrote:

Please don't attribute that to me ... I did NOT say that.
Thanks ...
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There is a lot about the climate that is very difficult to monitor and predict. But the trend and its association with greenhouse gases is a bit too strong to completely discount. So in the absence of definitive proof that manmade - anthropomorphic - greenhouse gases do not affect the climate, I only think it prudent to try to limit them.
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On 9/2/2011 5:21 PM, Han wrote:

What I really would like some smart person to do is give me a rational explanation as to why the progressive mindset is so willing to embrace AGW, and why the conservative mindset is the polar opposite.
Most all other political/socioeconomic issues have a fairly obvious rationale behind the different thought process ... this one defies my ability to put a finger it.
To hell with the arguments, time will tell and what will be, will be ... but answer that one for me and I believe we'd be on the road to either a solution, or resignation. :)
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On 9/2/2011 5:42 PM, Swingman wrote: ...

Because the progressives are using GW as pretext to implement cap and trade legislation as well as other global initiatives that give up US sovereign unilateral control (as many see it).
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I have looked at cap and trade as a way to let the market place put a price on "pollution" and of course if that is treated as an affair of the local municipality it won't work. Therefore especially in Europe it is treated as a more global thing (Some European countries are not much bigger than some of our bigger metropolitan areas - I'm originally from Holland <grin>).
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On 9/2/2011 7:51 PM, Han wrote:

Excepting, of course, it isn't a market force that's trying to place it there, it's a legislative body.
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The big problem now is that China isn't interested in "capping" and China isn't interested in "trading" and China is the largest single emitter of greenhouse gases despite having signed Kyoto.
When the US was the biggest emitter and everybody could benefit by making the US pay penalties for that situation "cap and trade" seemed wonderful to the UN. Now that a country that isn't wealthy and doesn't really give a crap what the UN likes is the biggest emitter it's a different ball game.
If you want to end greenhouse emissions you're going to have to force China to cooperate. World's largest army, more men fit for military service than the entire population of the US, and they have nukes. You do the math.
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Tax policies have always involved stimulating what we want and punishing what we don't. I see no difference here. Cap and trade, oil depletion allowances, I won't pretend I understand the intricacies, but I get the idea.
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So lets take a totally screwed up system and mess it up even further. (g).
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Of course. And now we have brainwashed the hoi polloi into voting idiots into office, we're really up the creek. I'm gonna get a bigger paddle.
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Han
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Many suckers for the well-funded anti-GW lobby, but few well-informed people, and certainly no honest scientists.
Ex: James Hansen, NASA's leading climate scientist. Hansen, who appeared before Congress thirty years ago and laid out the exact scenario that is unfolding today. On the oil shale thread, read his comments.
HB

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Not sure of the answer to your question, as I am not sure that the correlation is anything other than perceived or coincidental. Perhaps the progressives want to better our lot more hands-on, the laggards (<big grin>) like to hope for the best.

Wrong, Karl, so sorry. Yes there are different premises, and different philosophies, but like conservatives as you call them (used to be a far dirtier concept back in Holland in the 60s than liberal is here now) I would like liberty and opportunity for all, and no free ride for lazy people. But help for truly needy is "good" in my opinion.

Yes time will tell, and I do believe that tolerance and respect for opposing views is important. But while I respect your opposing view regarding climate change, I can't understand the reasoning, since I believe the arguments are based on misconceptions. But ... time WILL tell.
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On 9/2/2011 7:29 PM, Han wrote: ...

That's what I think is wrong w/ the "science" of AGW--it's made to fit the preconception of it being so and woe to any who (at least at this point in time) dares think differently.
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