OT FIRST RUN WOODWORKS

[ron]

Just curious, are there any first run Woodworks episodes? DIY network runs the show all weekend, but I have noticed they are all dated 2002 to 2005.

[Swingman]

Actually, there haven't been any new shows in over three years. Here is a video interview with David and his wife, Victoria, where he mentions the number of episodes:

[i82much]

Here in southern Calif "WoodsmithShop" just started airing on PBS The shows I've seen deal with the basic wwing process

[Swingman]

"i82much" wrote

We've got them on PBS here also. Although I've set the DVR to record them just in case, the "WoodsmithShop" content thus far have been a bit too basic to keep for my purposes, although I'm glad to see that ww shows are still being produced and run on PBS.

AAMOF, I wish I still had the original versions I recorded from PBS of "Wood Works" (lost them on a DVR that went south before I had a chance to xfer them to DVD), as the DIY versions are full of DIY's inane commercial bullshit, including pop up screens over the content on occasion ... damned American commercial greed.

[Swingman]

"Swingman" wrote

This is a GREAT video to watch with your SWMBO. AAMOF, it should be made a mandatory SWMBO duty, for indeed, a great amount of woodworking mileage, karma, blessings, understanding, and maybe even a tool or two, can be obtained by familiarity therewith. DAMHIKT.

Insist upon it ...

[nailshooter41]

You know Swing, that was a pretty good video. I was surprised to see how accessible and easy going Marks was.

He came to our sunny town about three years ago shilling something for Woodcraft. Here for the day only, it was treated as the second coming. The boys of the woodworking club and the staff at WC were positively giddy with excitement.

He got here, and by all accounts, he was abrupt and hurried. It was obvious that it was an obligation. He did not want to share woodworking stories with any of them, and made that clear. But he really rubbed the woodworking club members the wrong way at his reaction to a piece they brought forward for his blessing.

One of the guys had made one of Marks' tables, and had gotten so many compliments on it that he decided to teach others how to make it. (That meant he was now a woodworking instructor, right?) This guy had made several of these tables along with his classes, and was feeling pretty good about his work.

Without knowing who the instructor or artisan actually was, he looked over the table and rendered a pretty seething commentary on how it was made, how the joints were assembled, how the veneer trims were installed and really hammered the finish.

Marks did not know that they "instructor" was standing right there with him, and his words cut really deep. As for me, I saw the table and I must say I have seen better and I have seen worse. (Although, I must say in Marks' defense that the finish looked like it was put on with a flooring trowel.)

Maybe he was rushed, maybe he didn't want to be there, maybe there was trouble at home, who knows. But he cut so deeply that the guy quit his instruction and won't teach anyone anything anymore.

In my opinion, Marks was wrong. There were all these older retirees, younger hobby guys, garage woodworkers, etc., that were just looking for a pat on the back. I know there are many that feel like the cold light of truth is always the best way to view things, but I am not one of them. Those guys knew there work wasn't perfect, they just wanted a nod and a "man, that looks nice". They would have have been "proud to bust" and had bragging rights for 10 years over a compliment.

And it isn't like these guys were even trying to make it as cabinet or furniture makers. I get a charge out of some of them as they told me that it takes so damn long for them to do anything that they would starve to death unless they charged by the hour. But, the allow that if they charged by the hour they would be rich!

Since I do this for a living like you do, I run into two different kinds of folks that do woodworking. There are those that don't want me to see their work. I always find ways to compliment them. Always. They turn beet red when their SO says from the kitchen "honey, did you show Robert the XXX you made?". I always finds something positive to say. On the other hand, from time to time I am surprised and run into a fellow that is as good as any professional, so it is easy to be complimentary. I find that most non-professional woodworkers have a good sense of humility, and are in the crafts to enjoy them more than anything else.

The other kind is the one that cannot wait for me to see what he has done. These were the guys that were at the Marks show at WC. And yes, these guys get compliments, too. Why not? They aren't pros, and don't pretend to be. Sometimes they ask for tips, sometimes I offer one or two. It is always a positive experience. And if they turn out to be clients, more than once I have had wives come to me and tell me how much they appreciated me taking the time to examine a project and pass on some compliments.

I think the art of a carefully crafted compliment is a good habit to have, and one that is also lost these days. It costs nothing, and given the right way you aren't pandering or insincere. But you can sure do a lot of good with it.

I think it is interesting that Marks speaks highly of others and his students and assistants, and he seemed sincere in the video since he obviously didn't have to bring it up at all. And he was really nice to that young guy and his wife.

Maybe when he came here he was just having a bad day.

Off the soap box now.

Robert

[Swingman]

wrote

I don't know Marks at all, so I can't say.

However, and unless/until you've dealt with the truly artistic on a professional level, you have no idea how critical they can be of other's of the same ilk, and at the same time be completely crushed by the tiniest criticism of their own efforts ... it appears both these elements appear in your story. :)

I will say that I've had similar experiences in the studio being _forced_ to make judgments about songs, music, vocals, etc. as to suitability for recording and/or including in a project, and I'm probably more like Mark's was at that particular moment ... if it sucks, it sucks, and it certainly won't make the creator/artist a better songwriter/musician to be told how wonderful their bad song/part is.

AAMOF, you are ultimately, and in reality, doing them a favor, not to mention doing what you're paid to do.

That said, a considerate person will usually insure that constructive, or destructive as the case may be, criticism always includes suggestions for improvement. In the studio where 'magic musical moments' are the most sought after pearls, it is imperative because a creative person can be so crushed as to no longer be able to perform.

Sound familiar?

[Frank Boettcher]

I've never met him.

I get the impresssion from your post that he was being paid for a PR visit. Certainly a different standard than if he was running his school. Almost an imperative that one be constructive and courteous with comments, particularly in a group of people of diverse skill levels.

I've been around Norm Abram, and to a lesser extent, Scott Phillips, for a number of paid PR sessions and with them socially before or after the sessions. Despite the fact that they were confronted with a full spectrum of personalities and skill levels (some I'm sure, more skilled then they are), they were always gracious. And even with the guard dropped, you never heard after the fact, "boy, what a bunch of jerks, glad thats over".

From the part of the video I watched, I concluded that Marks was through with sponsorship and out of the business of payment for PR. Maybe that's a good thing, he may be too artistic and not have the patience for it.

Frank

[asmurff]

I believe you have the type of attitude towards others the world really needs to try and bring back. I know my woodworking is still on a novice level, but a kind word from someone more accomplished sure encourages me to continue. That kind word with helpful hints as the say is "priceless".

[Lee Michaels]

It ain't just woodworking. Kind words are in a great shortage in this day and age. There was a time when courtesy and polite conversation was considered an art form.

Kind words are healing. Kind words are helpful and incouraging. Mean and nasty isn't helpful or inspirational.

[evodawg]

Think music and woodworking are two different talents. In music, vocals or composing you either have it or you don't. Woodworking, talent can be taught or developed. A true woodworking artist takes time to develop. A true musical artist is a god given talent.

So yes it is a good idea to let the less talented musician know right away he sucks. Let the woodworker develop his talent without critical criticism.

Just my 2 sense. Rich

[Chris Friesen]

I disagree. Talent is innate, skill is learned.

A true artist of any sort must have talent, but that just means that it makes it easier to learn the skills. They still need to put in the time to develop their skills.

On the flip side, it's possible to learn most skills without having a talent for them...it's just more painful and takes longer.

Chris

[dpb]

Chris Friesen wrote: ...

But the level of skill won't approach that of somebody w/ talent who also hones their skill.

Most will not become Tiger no matter how much golf they play.

--

[PDQ]

Come back after a couple of years and you will wonder how the hell it = ever worked. Happened to me on one of my first efforts and I ended up a = systems engineer.

P D Q

[Robatoy]

Fair enough.

r

[Lew Hodgett]

Remember what you were supposed to learn at your mother's knee?

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything ay all".

Lew

[Tom Watson]

This could turn the entire planet into a mime show.

Tom Watson tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet

[Robatoy]

And a mime is a terrible thing to waste.

[dpb]

...

Reading the story my take is the folks at the store and in the club are probably at least equally at fault for taking excessive advantage of an event for their own purposes...

--

[nailshooter41]

Nor do I. And as noted, maybe it was a bad day for him.

I do have a good idea, and I have never liked "those kinds of guys". One thing I learned over nearly 35 years of getting paid as a professional woodworker is this: No matter how good you are, there is always someone better.

With so many years in the trades, and with so many of them being self employed (27.... crap!) I have done a great deal of carpentry work. One thing I learned really well after a few years in the trades was a proper perspective on the endless arena of woodworking. I have learned that just because you can do one or two (or three) thing well, it doesn't mean you are a master at all aspects.

In the bigger picture, I spent time working for a financial institution managing their construction portfolio. So if a "Marks" comes to me when I was in banking and cannot correctly calculate the compounding per diem interest or APR on a floating rate interim loan (which as you know is typical for most aspects of construction financing), should I have belittled him?

I had those folks come in all the time with their HP12c calculators and try like hell to figure out what their financing was costing them when they had a building principal as project went on. When I saw their calculations (which by the way, were NEVER right) I didn't make them ashamed of their efforts.

The guys that went to meet Marks are not, were not, and don't intend to be professionals. If they were, it would have been a totally different situation. Personally, I keep my mouth shut as to what I think of most people's work, unless they are working for me, or with me. On my dime, I try to be as constructive as possible, as quick to praise as I am to criticize, but the guys on the job ARE professionals, and a thicker hide is needed when certain expectations of quality are expected simply because they are pros.

If they are asking you pointedly for your opinion as one professional musician to another, you shouldn't fudge too much. I think you should tell them the truth, and as unvarnished as possible without destroying them. I have had many a woodworking compatriot strike out on their own after doing a couple of nice jobs, only to find that one of the real talents of being a professional woodworker is to be able to pay one's bills.

Yes it does. But we are talking about two different things. You are writing about interfacing as one professional to another (or maybe to an aspiring professional). I have had many a candid talk with fellow professionals about different aspects of our own work, and I have no problem admitting my own shortcomings in certain aspects of woodworking.

For example, if I cut a roof, I can spend an extra week cutting in valley rafters, jacks and compound cut soldier walls for tile. I can get it done, but it is painful. I had a guy that worked for me for years that loved to cut in roofs and took a lot of pride in cutting in full hip roofs. He was easily 3-4 times faster than me. But, if we needed to modify a or make a cabinet, he was totally lost.

Oversize crown molding was a mystery greater than Stonehenge to that guy, and while I truly admired his skills at the beautiful hip roofs he would cut (there was almost no cutting the sheathing to compensate for an off cut, ever) he thought I was the better carpenter because I could build/rebuild cabinets and build doors and frames from scratch. We tried to help each other along in our deficiencies, but actually had little luck. But that was one pro to another, done with respect for one another's talents. No harm, no foul. We had been around the block enough times to realize you can't excel at all aspects of woodworking.

Marks' visit was a one time, few hour visit where he was facing a serious case of leg rash from hero worship at best. He was not there to instruct, critique, or judge projects. He was there to be the guy on TV. If his audience had been students or fellow professionals, then I probably wouldn't have cared. Most "artists" seem to be arrogant insecure pricks, and poor behavior seems to be a hallmark of accomplishment these days. I am not saying that describes Marks.

A revisit:

A good observation. But upon reflection it also extends to the psuedo artists as well. I no longer participate in our local woodturning club due to the unbridled snobbery those in the club show to each other. I think the club should be an open door for all to participate on all levels. Everyone should be encouraged to have fun and try different things, no matter the success or failure.

It isn't that way though, as many of the guys in the club have been "serious turners" for as much as five years! Say it ain't so! And by the time they jangle their memory a little, add in a high school semester of shop and watching Dave Hout on DIY, they can easily claim ten years. So they have to be experts, right?

A grand lesson in humility was learned by them (too bad it didn't stick) when we had a fantastic turner come in for a demo a couple of years ago. He looked at some of the work on a table the guys had brought for "judging" between themselves. He thought he was there to "critique" not pick the best piece. So, instead of someone getting bragging rights for a job well done, it went completely the other way.

He didn't want to know at first who did what. So he would hold up the piece and say things like "I'm not sure what he was going for here, so maybe someone should pipe in and tell me what they were trying to do", or " I assume this was done on purpose ?!? ". One of our red faced artists had to own up to their own work, and take the criticism. It was done with some grace and tact, but the unvarnished truth was too harsh for many.

Their mutual admiration society took a real hard hit, and as you observed, the haughtiest of the artists were the most severely wounded. They were OK the next meeting, but then in subsequent meetings the decided they had been treated unfairly and that person wouldn't be asked back. To me, he was a breath of fresh air.

I don't know when an "artist" becomes and "artist" but I hope I don't ever become one. Seems too hard.

OK.... this time I mean it. Off the box.

Robert