OT - Elizabeth Edwards Funeral Protest

[Tim Daneliuk]

needless suffering on innocent parties and then exploit the outrage over that loathsome practice. If it was up to me (and so far the courts have been curiously reluctant to seek my opinion on this or other matters) I'd bar such protests far enough from the gates of a cemetery so that the family can come and go without seeing these gibbering vermin.

have more complaints about gov intervention and slowly stripping our freedom away.

Even as we speak, one corner of the political spectrum wants to use FCC oversight to silence the other. Both corners are obnoxious, but both ought to be free to peddle their ideas. Putting government in charge of who get's to say what is deadly ... there are no exceptions.

[Larry Blanchard]

I really, really, really hope you're trolling :-).

[DGDevin]

IMO it would solve this particular problem quite nicely. It's not like the Phelps clan is a franchise operation with branches in every city.

Legislators climb over each other to pass laws stopping the Phelps clan from getting near military funerals, the problem isn't the legislative or executive branches, it is the judicial branch. The courts (usually correctly) lean towards protecting freedom of speech, but there are still limitations when a public need is more pressing than an individual one--IMO this should be one of them. But as the lawyers say, hard cases make bad law.

Because they don't see them as equal, they assume that hurt feelings are not as important as freedom of speech. In general I agree with that, but I do feel that this particular speech should not be protected outside the gates of a cemetery even if I would protect it a quarter of a mile away. We impose limitations on speech in order to serve compelling public needs, e.g. discouraging defamation or incitement to violence. I think a case could be made that the Phelps mutants have ample opportunity to express their views in places other than in front of grieving relations at a funeral, that their rights do not depend on protesting outside the cemetery gates. Some laws that have been passed require them to stay 1,000 feet away, but others impose a useless 150 foot requirement--I'd make it at least 1,500 feet. If they want to protest a few blocks away in front of some car wash, fine. Then the car wash owner can sue them for interfering with his business.

[DGDevin]

The bank is going to repo his rig anyway, that's one of the reasons he's so pissed-off.

[DGDevin]

Nonsense. The law limits speech when a compelling public interest overrides a private interest. I cannot libel or slander you without risking a lawsuit, the law recognizes that preventing *damaging* defamation is more important than my right to speak defamatory words--your right not to be injured overrides my right to speak. The Phelps clan cannot demonstrate that being kept away from the gates of a cemetery prevents them from speaking, it only keeps them from inflicting emotional distress on the family of a dead soldier (or whoever's family they are trying to hurt). So the right of a family at a funeral not to injured by hateful speech should override the Phelps clan's right to speak *at that particular location*. This isn't a blanket ban on their speech, only a limitation on it being conducted in a location designed purely to inflict needless pain.

As one of the Supreme Court Justices hearing the related case asked, what if the Phelps wanted to protest outside the homes of wounded soldiers, follow them to their rehab sessions, picket family picnics, follow them down public streets and so on. Would that speech be protected? Are there no limits, anywhere, ever?

[DGDevin]

The courts have the final say on *everything*. So if the courts can determine whether or not someone goes to prison for the rest of his life (or gets a lethal injection), is it reasonable to insist they can't be trusted to rule on where the Phelps clan can stage their nightmarish protests?

[Disbelief]

> No word regarding Patriot Guard intervention.

With all due respects to the lady, its at times like this when the words from the song - Imagine - by the great, late John Lennon, ring very true when someone cannot be put to rest in peace because of religeous intolerance and bigotry.

Imagine there's no Heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today

Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for

*And* *no* *religion* too Imagine all the people *Living* *life* *in* *peace*

I am a committed atheist, but if there is to be religious friction in this world, then at least let all opposing factions call a truce at the interment of a "believer" so that they may meet their maker in peace.

[Mr.E]

Well said!

[Larry Jaques]

>>> No word regarding Patriot Guard intervention.

Nice thought, but the idiots on both (or all, as there are more than two) sides want to snuff the others.

I'll see you and call you one:

That's me in the corner That's me in the spotlight Losing my religion

(REM, 1991)

-- Know how to listen, and you will profit even from those who talk badly. -- Plutarch

[Disbelief]

>>>>> No word regarding Patriot Guard intervention.

Not a patch on Lennon's song - and if there were no religion, the world would be a damn site better place. Too many have died, been maimed, deprived of food or cast out of society in the name of religion - and usually by preachers of it who are either hypocrites or bigots or both.

When was the last time you saw a hungry clergyman? I could go on, but this is not the place to do so.

And just to finish Lennon's song:

You may say that I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one

And that's the world without religion..

[Robatoy]

Some people quote the Bible and try to live by what it teaches. You quote John Lennon, a drugged-out megalomaniac. You may, sir, live by what he had to say, I'll stick to _my_ beliefs.

[Han]

Robatoy wrote in news:a1877b77-6b34-4d19-a19b- [e-mail]:

That's right: To each his own, or as the poet said: Jeder soll nach seiner Façon selig werden

(one line):

[Disbelief]

I fully agree, and then perhaps the various religious factions could get on with living their own beliefs whilst respecting others and perhaps praying to whatever god they believe in peacefully side by side.

All the best and may your Christmas be a good and peaceful one - and if your religion doesn't recognise the birth of a Christ, then peace to you all.

[DGDevin]

A fellow my wife and I know lost everything to Hurricane Katrina, his house had six feet of water in it. He didn't even see anyone from FEMA for months, but he and his neighbors were fed and housed for the most part by church groups, many of them had come hundreds or even thousands of miles to help. So while I agree that religion has been the source of a lot of strife over the centuries, that doesn't mean that no good has ever come of it. Religion is no different from any other aspect of human society, it can be a force for good or ill, it all depends on how people use it.

[Larry Blanchard]

Absolutely correct. And whether or not the religion is "true" or not seems to have no bearing.

Have a wonderful winter solstice festival, whatever myths you attach to it :-).

[Robatoy]

I celebrate Festivus.

[Larry Jaques]

Yeah, tell us all about your Old Testament punishments and such, Toy.

Poor John was horribly liberal, too.

-- Know how to listen, and you will profit even from those who talk badly. -- Plutarch

[Larry Jaques]

Please remember that one does not have to go to church, nor preach to natives to have a good heart, to share their bounty, or to be nice to people. Religion gets in the way of that more than you think, driving away generous people who don't want to put up with the horrible bigotry and animosity of churchgoers of all races and religions.

I'm totally against organized religion yet I gave $6 to a lady and her daughter who approached me as I left the market yesterday. They needed gas to get to Portland.

Religious folks can keep their witch burnings, Crusades, Westboros, etc.

-- Know how to listen, and you will profit even from those who talk badly. -- Plutarch

[Tim Daneliuk]

be a damn site better place. Too many have died, been maimed, deprived of food or cast out of society in the name of religion - and usually by preachers of it who are either hypocrites or bigots or both.

had six feet of water in it. He didn't even see anyone from FEMA for months, but he and his neighbors were fed and housed for the most part by church groups, many of them had come hundreds or even thousands of miles to help. So while I agree that religion has been the source of a lot of strife over the centuries, that doesn't mean that no good has ever come of it. Religion is no different from any other aspect of human society, it can be a force for good or ill, it all depends on how people use it.

More people have died at the hands of atheists than at the hands of the religious wingnuts. Stalin alone probably eclipses the entire death toll of the Crusades and medieval Christian church. Tribalists come in second - think Tutsi/Hutu for one example - but religion is a far distant third.

[DGDevin]

How about their soup kitchens and homeless shelters and rehab programs and hospices and so on, can they keep those two? You're choosing to see only one side, and while bigotry and stupidity can certainly be found among religious people, so can compassion and generosity. I've known some real jerks who made a big deal of their religious faith, but some of the nicest folks I've ever met were also very religious--they're not all looking for opportunities to burn witches.