OT: Edward

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Love him or hate him, does anyone think Edward Kennedy will get 1\100th the press that Michael Jackson did?
RonB
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What did he do? Did he drive off of a bridge again? Anyone killed this time?
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

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Froz...

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wrote:

Another Christian among us.
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I'd like to pass a bit of wisdom from one friend to another:
"Forgiving benefits the forgiver."
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Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
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Morris Dovey wrote:

Mary Jo can't forgive him - she's dead...
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Tim Daneliuk wrote:

Yes, of course, but I've sent all the anger his way that I'm ever going to - I have too many other things to do with my life for which I believe my attention and energy will be better spent. YMMV.
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Morris Dovey
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Morris Dovey wrote:

I, for one, have no particular anger toward him, I'm simply glad he is out of American politics. One less actor for evil in place...
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She more than likely, knowingly, got into the car with a drunk driver. Does she bear any responsibility here? Darwinism?

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GarageWoodworks wrote:

If she was impaired in judgment, all the more reason he shouldn't have been.
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No they were the cause of thousands of deaths and dozens (if not hundreds) of torture victims (the majority of both groups being innocent) and then just walked away from the crimes. We'll see if they ever answer for those crimes.
I'm not saying Ted Kennedy was right all the time, but maybe you ought to pick a better example.
Ed
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Ed Edelenbos wrote:

This is a foolish equivocation that doesn't hold up to even a casual inspection. Bush's political opponents are using Proof By Repeated Assertion to claim they are responsible for these crimes. But the evidence, thus far, is nonexistent to support such a claim. Yes, he was "in charge" and broadly bears responsibility as CIC, but that's a far cry from demonstrating he personally and knowingly ordered actions of this sort and degree.
And .. your numbers are vastly inflated. What is far more likely is that a few people in theater got carried away, were not properly prepared for the task at hand, and crossed the line.
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On Wed, 26 Aug 2009 20:41:23 -0500, Tim Daneliuk

If he didn't know, he wasn't doing his job. It was on his watch. He's responsible.

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Ed Edelenbos wrote:

The thousands that died under Bush and Mary Jo had something in common; they were all volunteers.
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Tim Daneliuk wrote:

No, they took the country to war at best in error, resulting in thousands of dead young Americans and many times that number of Iraqis.
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DGDevin wrote:

An opinion at best (the "in error" part)

That's what happens when people *volunteer* to become soldiers. They run the risk of being deployed.
and many times that number of Iraqis.
Compared to what? How many died at the hands of Saddam while you and your ilk sat by silently?
Reasonable people can disagree about the need for the Iraq invasion. But it is the most puerile of moral equivocations to see such as worse than a rich drunk driving his date off a bridge and then fleeing the scene of the crime. A rich drunk who only got away with it because he is well connected by his family and his fellow elites that think they're better than the rest of us mere mortals. I'll take 10 Bush/Cheney's over the execrable political and cultural left ... and I'm not remotely a rightwinger or Republican...
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Tim Daneliuk wrote:

Oh, really? Refresh my memory, how many of those oft-threatened WMDs did they find? I recall speeches about how we couldn't wait for a mushroom cloud over an American city, so just how many of those almost-finished WMDs turned up to justify the invasion launched to prevent them from being used?

What a foul statement, to suggest that the lives of volunteers can be thrown away carelessly because they volunteered.

My ilk? Because I disagree with you, you figure you can drop me into whatever pigeon-hole you please? Ask anyone who knows me how they would describe my politics and they'd answer conservative, but you figure I'm a hand-wringing leftie because I see the invasion of Iraq for the massive blunder it was--too funny.
Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of his own people, and if you count the Iran-Iraq war and Desert Storm he was responsible for the deaths of millions. So does that mean anyone who kills a lesser number of Iraqis get a free pass? Two wrongs make a right?
And since when is the U.S. in charge of removing every dictator on earth? The U.S. has cheerfully tolerated or even actively supported a string of dictators around the world who were useful to U.S. foreign policy. So long as a dictator claimed to be saving his country from communism (and especially if he had a valuable natural resource to provide) America managed to look the other way and not see the death squads, the secret police, the burned villages and so on. Democracy? America has supported coups that overthrew democratically elected governments, remember? When Saddam was at war with Iran his murderous ways didn't seem to be much of a problem for America. He gassed Kurds because they were supporting Iran, remember? Why did their lives matter only when it was time to get rid of Saddam?
If Saddam had never invaded Kuwait he'd be in power to this day, a valued counter-weight to Iran. He wasn't toppled from power because he was a bloody-handed dictator, but because he stopped being a *useful* bloody-handed dictator and instead became a pain in the ass.

When a decision of that magnitude is made in the way it was, with every scrap of dubious intelligence treated like gold in spite of warnings from friendly powers that it was unreliable (see: Curveball) while anyone with a dissenting view is discouraged or even removed from the debate, "reasonable" doesn't enter into it. The decision to invade was made first, then a case to support that decision was fabricated from rotten materials using a massively flawed design. In woodworking terms the invasion of Iraq didn't pass code, which is why Americans are still dying there (but that's okay because they volunteered) six years later.

One death vs. many, many thousands. Not to mention a trillion dollars and the enmity of much of the world. But you figure one drowning caused by a rich drunk is of greater weight huh? Unbelievable.

Sounds a bit like the guy who occupied the Oval Office for the past eight years. For that matter it sounds like half the politicians in Washington on both sides of the aisle.

You're a pompous blowhard whatever politics you claim, the Usenet equivalent of the cranky old guy who waves his cane from his porch and yells at those damn kids to get off his lawn. If you moved a bit further to the right you'd fall off the edge....
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DGDevin wrote:

You reason like a 5 year old: I didn't get hurt doing X therefore X is never a threat. I'll keep doing/ignoring/allowing X. Almost the entire US Senate, a good many Western leaders (UK, Italy, Spain), many of the former Soviet states, and Russia itself agreed that there was credible threat. The fact that the threat turned out to be overstated does not make the case for going in initially less compelling.

There was nothing "careless" about their deployment. It was a carefully made case, in public, before the governing bodies of the US and indeed the entire world. It is only "careless" because you continue to foam at Bush whom you apparently despise. Unless you can *demonstrate* (as opposed to spitting and spewing invective) that W *intentionally mislead* everyone involved. You have no case.

I have no idea whether you're a leftie, but you're certainly hand wringing. That part of the Islamic world has been a misery for decades, primarily to its own people. I'm not crazy about the US deploying its troops anywhere but, having done so and neutered one of the most vile dictators on the planet., I see no particular reason to question the move *unless* it can be demonstrated it was done under false pretenses. The "blunder" in Iraq was not invading and taking out its leadership. The blunder was sticking around to fix what we did not break in the first place: The Sunni-Shia divide. Having decapitated their leadership, we should have exited, warning the locals that if they ever engage in that sort of behavior again, we'd be back to flatten the place, and then walk away. But it was the idiots in the State Department that whined "we broke it so we have to fix it." They were wrong and now we're stuck digging ourselves out of a job that was never ours to do in the first place. Incidentally, the Idiot Left (tm) thinks we should go do this all over again in Africa.

What we did initially was not wrong - we gave the locals a chance to dig out from under a dictatorship.

Because our policies are supposed to be in *our* interests not "fair" to everyone else. I stipulate that you are right: We've stupidly supported some really bad actors. And - this may surprise you - I'd be happy to back away from the rest of the world entirely, let them all kill each other at will, and trade with the victors. There just one little problem - today's despots are next year's nuclear weapons owners, especially given the petrodollars of the region in question. And we *cannot* allow that to happen. One of the many upsides to the Iraq invasion is that it gives us a way to put huge pressure on the very worst actor in the region, Iran. There is going to be conflict with Iran by someone.

So what? He's gone and the world is better for it. His unwillingness to be our counterweight to the vile pestilence that runs Iran just means we have to go do it ourselves.

What nonsense. How many Senators voted to go? Are they all bought and paid for by W's money? Get serious.

Then prove your case and arrest W for war crimes. You'll be a hero of the Idiot Left (tm) even though you are not one of them.

The many thousands of deaths occurred lawfully within international law. The two deaths were a violation of local civil laws. See the difference now?

Then support - as I do - single term limits and never let any of them ever get a foothold on power.

I see you're out of ideas again - nothing like a little personal misdirection to feel better I guess.

You are very wrong and your tone very tired. I am not even approximately a right winger. It's just that the Idiot Left (tm) is so very, very bad they make the right look good by comparison. Just so you know - and I'll use small words and simple sentence structure here - I ordinarily vote Libertarian or some other third-party. I'd vote for Ron Paul in a minute if he ran notwithstanding my disagreement with his position on the war.
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Hence their enormous success in the last election.
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Elrond Hubbard wrote:

This too shall pass - sooner than later it would seem from watching the current administration's implosion on healthcare...
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