OT: DST

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wrote:

I would have an easier time getting it up for either Rosie O'Donnell or Janet Reno...
A roll in the hay with Coulter would be dangerous, she could hit you with her hooves.
NEIGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Dave in Houston
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A roll in the hay with Coulter...she'd be too busy eating the frickin' hay.
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On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:04:27 -0700 (PDT), Robatoy

You're kidding, right? The reason is that the rethuglicans have set themselves up as the "family values" party, while in fact although they are no better morally than the Dems, peg the scale in the hypocrisy department. I'll never forget serial philanderer Henry Hyde standing in the well of Congress with a straight face castigating Bill Clinton on morality. There oughta be a poster somewhere...

Something I've wondered: is it that the party has become the party of arrogance due to some internal mechanism, or is it that wildly arrogant jerks are automatically attracted to it and thus multiply it from without? Perhaps a combination. But they're sure all over the internet.

We had one too many as it was.
--
LRod

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wrote:

Really; Ronnie and Nancy, there was a two-fer-one deal long before Bill and Hill.
Dave in Houston
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Okay.. my tongue MAY have been planted somewhat in my cheek. The point I was trying to make is that philanderers with dead women and live boys in their boudoirs exist on both sides of the isle. It is that aura of invincible arrogance which makes them think they are above all laws and morals.
I think Spitzer got railroaded because he had the dirt on Larry Silverstein.
*adjusts tinfoil hat*
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Robatoy wrote:
... snip

Beats the @#$% out of me. The Republicans let the dems and independents choose the Republican candidate through the cross-over voting in the early primaries. So now we've got statists running on both sides, it's just that one of them might be a little less statist than the other.

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

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the inevitable. The current administration is now reaching for socialist solutions. How screwed up is that? Bear Stearns, bye bye... next?
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Don't mean to sound crass, but sounds like they managed to retain parental control by application of the old guilt trip routine.

Sometimes we don't want to face reality, but it has to be done.
Something the pros face every day, and are equipped to handle.

The old guilt trip routine got shot down in flames.

Sounds like he could use more than he is getting.

That is unfortunate; however, it is still just stuff.
As my mother has often said, "Never yet saw a U-Haul follow a hearse".

Sometimes it takes a united front to overcome the old guilt trip game.

Sounds like you are making some progress.

Going rate for a nursing home is in the $180/day range.
That $480 wouldn't even cover 2 days for 2 people.
Looks like you may be headed down a path everybody can live with.
Might want to check out meals on wheels, my mother really liked it and the fact somebody knocked on the door and said "Hello, how are you", 5 days a week.
Lew
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Good sir, you have mastered the art of understatement. My folks could shame The Pope into suicide.
I laughed pretty hard at that as it took a really long time for me to catch on.
SNIP

I have tried to get him to talk to a counselor about depression, many, many times. I have even procured two different prescriptions for him and conned him into two psych evaluations. Both times the counselors admitted that there were a lot of troubling issues there, and that some counseling would certainly help. They told me that they could treat him on a six months at a time prescribed medical basis since they could tie in at least part of his depression to his long term, debilitating illness.
I was elated. Dear old Dad told me "he wasn't crazy, and no damn bitch could tell him he was". That was that. Besides, he told me, real mean don't go around sharing their problems, they suck 'em up.
So much for counseling.

I agree, but I see where they are coming from. Her little bitty first wedding band that she got in 1951 meant a lot more to her than her newer band with a stone for each of her kids. It didn't matter much as they stole them both.
The bad things about the check theft was that the vendors didn't want to back off the forged checks. Since they stole the reserve box, not the active book, my folks couldn't immediately tell the bank which checks to put a stop on. Worse, they wanted $25 a check, and with the whole box gone it would have been 250 checks to cover, or over $6000. The bank informed them that simply closing the account didn't negate the fact that checks were out there, and that it wasn't the bank's fault if they were honored.
Thankfully, San Antonio has a special police investigative unit that just covers check fraud. Nothing else. When they came to investigate the missing checks, they found out what the bank said to my folks. They were able to set the bank straight, and the bullshit stopped immediately with who was going to pay for the hot checks the bank honored. My folks didn't pay much more than about $300 in total.
I think in the end, the constant flurry of activity was harder on them in the end than the theft was. Having the check fraud cops come over to the house every time a check popped up was hard, and then toss in a robbery investigator from the crime unit every time they thought they found one of my Mom's pieces of jewelry, sprinkled with a guy from the bank from time to time was really hard for them.

You know, that's a great idea. We had talked about that with them before, and they have said "no" a couple of times. It might well be time to bring that up again, EXACTLY for the reason you mentioned.
Thanks, Lew.
Robert
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 11:08:07 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

I appreciate all the information you've passed on. Some of it is likely going to be of use to me, although I'm farther along in the process than you are, to some extent.
My mother is 88 and generally self sufficient. She lives in a condo 250 miles away above her sister's condo. They both drive (although my mother shouldn't--this is Florida, however...), and are both active. Her three other sisters are all in their 80s and all still alive, too,
I am the sole remaining direct family (not counting sisters)--my father and only brother both died in '95. I am the first born, so I've had the sun and moon status my whole life, and generally my mother and I don't have issues other than one of us got their pig-headedness from the other, and there's an equal chance of which direction that went.
The principal difference between us is the assessment of her health and prospects. I've been trying to get her to give up driving for seven years. She lost the vision in one eye several years ago and has markedly reduced vision in the other. She is also hard of hearing. The only more dangerous prospect for her driving would be to completely lose the second eye, and I'll bet she'd still fight me.
Another difference is I'd like her to be up here in northern Florida so I could be closer by to take care of things and be available for the inevitable medical exigencies. She's been in South Florida for over 50 years, however, and although her circle of old friends has dwindled to near zero, she does have new friends, regular activities, and her sister downstairs.
I'm aware that she feels that I want to control her life, which I don't, but how does one keep making suggestions about moving closer, property opportunities, logical arguments, etc., without giving that appearance. She says she's, "just not ready to move," or that, "she's waiting until she's infirm," to which I retort that it isn't fair, I'd like her for some of the fun years, not just the invalid ones.
My daughter is watching all of this with some amusement, and tells me she can see what her life is going to be like in another twenty years.
To be fair, we did live in the same condo complex for four years in the early aughts, and I regularly demonstrated the advantages of being nearby as well as not being controlling (I think, although SWMBO is very capable of slapping me upside the head if I'm out of line), but we couldn't stand either the multi-family living or what South Florida has become in the last 30 years. I grew up there in the '50s and '60s, and it's no longer home to me.
I am on most or all of her bank accounts and investments, I think I need to get on her deed before too long, too. My wife is a health care professional (RN), so most of the medical stuff is up to date, but I need to work with my mother on the PoA (which I think is currently held by her 87 year old sister), a DNR, and some of the other docs you suggested.
Thanks for the info.
--
LRod

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"LRod" wrote

Check out that doesn't cause a gift tax situation and/or Medicaid eligibility "penalty period". SWMBO was recently advised to not do that and was sure glad she checked it ...
Here a good link worth reading that fits right in with your change in the subject ... keep scrolling down cause there's plenty more besides the first article:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Cant-I-Just-Deed-the-House-to-My-Child-and-Apply-for-Medicaid?&idC3119
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snip
I think I

You might get some advice before doing this. My Dad thought he was doing us (3 children) a favor by "putting us on his deed" when he was in his 70s. When he died 20 years later we found out that the dumbshit lawyer he used, worded the document in a way that put us on an equal ownership basis with Dad. As a result, when the house sold, we appeared to owe capital gains taxes from 1959. Our accountant is a really honest guy and was afraid we were screwed (we didn't want him to cross any lines for us - we use him because he is honest). But he and his lawyer/brother found legitimate justification for considering Dad's intent instead of the lawyer's clumsy wording and we came out OK.
I don't know your situation, and don't know law or accounting, but I would hate for you to get screwed for trying to do the right thing.
PDX David
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"LRod" wrote:

Fortunately, here in California, that is not a problem.
When you reach a certain age, you must periododically retake the written portion of the driving test in order to renew, then comes an updated eye exam, not sure about a hearing test.
Lets the kids off the hook when it is time to retire the keys. The state takes care of things.

I'm with your mom on that one.
After all, in an emergency, it falls to the paramedics, not you, to be first responder.
You are less than 6 hours away by car, maybe less by air.
SFWIW, the telephone is your best friend to monitor things from afar, at least it has been for me.

Then drive down and spend some time.
After about a week, you will be like fish, it will be time to go.
BTDT
Every body has to work things our to suit their needs.
Lew
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:21:25 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"

Florida is nowhere near that tough. Ten year licenses for 70 YO, maybe even 80 YO.

I'll still get blamed. Actually, that's not fair. I haven't really pressed the issue, except to bring it up every once in a while (not a lot). She actually made an offer to me on the last visit that if I were to get rid of our derelict second car she'd give up driving (netting her car). I talked with her a couple of days later to confirm what I'd heard, but she's still not quite ready.
If she were to move here, that would end it, because she's incapable of learning the area. Her cognitive skills have deteriorated to the point that she couldn't get around. Down there, she gets by because she's been driving those streets for 50 years. I have a sneaking suspcion she knows she won't be able to learn it and recognizes that coming up here will represent a significant blow to her independence.

I left a lot out of the story, but I can tell you her circumstances aren't nearly so compelling as you might have concluded.

Emergencies aren't the issue. Paramedics would likely be the first responder even if she lived in the condo at the entrance to my subdivision. I'm talking more like fixing plumbing or computer problems. Things that a son should do for his folks. I cannot tell you how frustrating it is to solve a computer problem over the phone with a compulsive clicker on the other end.

3, actually. No air. About the best we can do that doesn't involve me driving to MCO (about 1 hours, and JAX isn't even an option) is for her to fly USAir out of FLL to CLT, then from CLT to DAB. If you plotted that out on the map you'd see it's ridiculous. Probably close to six hours transit time (not flight time). She can actually come by train faster than that and it sits on sidings for 45 minutes at a stretch...unless it's late, and it's always late.

We're good phone buddies. I talk to her probably five times a week. We have substantive conversations. It's not a relationship like Robert was describing with his parents. Yes, we're both cut from much the same bolt in some areas, but we both have good senses of humor and there's a lot of laughter when we talk. Except for the above cited computer tech sessions.

Let me tell you about little old ladies who've lived in South Florida for 50 years. 72 is a cold snap. When you walk into her condo it's like walking into a kiln. It's difficult to get comfortable and impossible to sleep.
Let me tell you about sisters who grew up on a tenant farm during the depression. They are cheap. She bought two twin! beds for the spare room. They apparently were made out of horsehair stuffed six panel doors and are sitting on three large, overstressed coil springs. It'll remind you of a Laurel and Hardy movie or an episode of I Love Lucy.

We're going down there in three weeks to celebrate her older sister's 90th BD. We'll drive down to arrive about 1400, go out for the Early Bird (not my idea), and we'll hit the road about 2000 (so they can settle in for Larry King) and be back home before midnight. Can't sleep there.
I've tried and tried to get her to visit for an extended stay, like a month. She promised us a month last year--it turned out to be nine days. I can count on one hand the number of times she's visited us for more than three in the 40 years I've been gone from the house.
Now some uncharitable soul is sure to suggest that I must be the problem, but that ignores SWMBO who is the nicest person on the face of the planet. Why wouldn't she want more than three days with her?
I've pretty much given up on moving her up here until she has the inevitable I've-fallen-and-I-can't-get-up episode. She's already had a handful of falls. Once she took a header right in front of her sisters when they were travelling back home from my son's wedding. I took pictures a couple of days later. She looked like someone had beaten her up. I wasn't there for the fall, so no one could blame me, plus there were three witnesses (her sisters).
Oh, well. It could be worse. My dad had Alzheimers.
--
LRod

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"LRod" wrote:

My money says that if you can assure her that she will have transportation when she needs it and won't get stuck in her place pleading for a ride, she'd give up driving.
Around here as well as back in Ohio, door to door transportation was available. Just takes a phone call.

All the more reason for her to decide to leave the driving to others, but can certainly relate.
My mother is almost blind from cateracts.
She had memorized where every piece of furniture was located and used that info as she used a walker to move from place to place in her mobile home.

But having lived there 50+ years, she's there to stay for her remaining time.

You would be amazed at how creative your mother might get if she needs something repaired and sonny just isn't available.
My mother had estabished a whole network of handymen to do things around her mobile home.
One guy mowed the grass and shoveled the snow.
The guy who delivered the water softener salt would also pour it in the water softener.
She worked out deals with a plumber, a furnace man, an electrican, had a neighbor gal who did her books, her husband who was the emergency handyman, etc, etc.

Piece of cake.

Good you can communucate with each other.
There has got to be a work around for the puter.
How about hiring a neighbiorhood kid who is puter literate?
Kid makes a few $, your mom makes a new friend.
It could be a win-win for everybody.

I couldn't agree more, anything below 60 is simply not fit for human habitation, IMHO..

There is always Motel 6.

I beg to differ, they merely practice prudent stewardship of ones avaliable resources.
As a child of the depression, can certainly relate.

Sounds about the same as the bed I had available when I went back to visit mom.
You can make due for a week or buy a new mattress, or again, there is still Motel 6..

What's so bad about the early bird?
I take advantage of them frequently.
Same food they serve later.
Maybe Motel 6, then a short visit next day before returning?

IMHO, based on what you have written, that's not going to happen.

That's more than I ever got. Count your blessings.

Sounds like a presedent has been set<G>.

MEDICAL ALERT! !
Be gentle, but insist she wear it if she wants to live alone.

I don't understand, why is that important?
An accident is just exactly that.
What happens to avoid a repeat can be very important.
None of this is easy for either sibling(s) or parents.
Lew
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It's long, but it might be helpful. Just get comfortable before reading!

I am pleased to think that sharing some of the things I had to learn the hard way might help someone along the same path. I think it is too hard on responsible relatives that are charged with taking care of the elderly, and it is much, much harder on them than it ever should be. I comparing notes with some of my compatriots, I have learned the following:
- Many situations are similar, but all are different. No two care workers have the same take on who will pay for what, even if they are from the same agency
- Since so many are involved in these processes, it is difficult to marshal, people, opinions, and thought processes into a cohesive unit. For example. the sister that is the strongest supporter I had in helping with my folks was diagnosed with breast cancer at the same time we put my diabetic mother in for a pacemaker and defribulator. Her main charge was to keep her children assured that she wasn't going to die
- You have to ask, ask, ask for every damn thing. Even the some of the doctors were reluctant to prescribe certain treatments as they all feel a little under the microscope due to all the reported Medicare fraud. They offer almost nothing upfront; and if they have a prescription for something like physical therapy you must ask them to write it in such a way as to be acceptable to Medicare, otherwise it will be turned down
- The folks aren't in their right minds. After years of different illnesses and their physical pain, it has literally altered their personalities. As they have gotten older and more fragile, they are afraid of a lot of things. Knowing that their physical lives will never get better, not ever, is certainly no comfort. They can be so bitter and mean they are intolerable to be around. Then the next time I see them they are happy to just have company. I never know which set of parents I am going to see, that's for sure.
- They didn't want to end up this way and they never thought they would. They both thought that surely something would have taken them out by now. While they don't mind being a PITA, they never thought it would go on this long. They aren't happy with it, either
- You aren't on a road that others aren't on, and certainly not one that couldn't be a lot worse
I try to keep those things in mind when I see the train going off the track.

God bless them for having the sense to live close to each other. That is such boon to the spirits. My folks feel so terribly alone since all their friends have either expired or are in bad physical/mental shape. They never see anyone except their kids and healthcare people. I think any kind of company would cheer them up tremendously.

My father was in some minor fender benders and a couple of fairly serious wrecks. All were his fault, and he knew it even though he covered the incidents with some really lame excuses about people driving too fast, waiting till the last minute to signal, etc. Finally, he was sitting at a stop sign pulled out into traffic to make a right hand turn. He was clipped by a truck that literally tore off the front end of his Jeep Grand Cherokee.
My sisters clouded up and rained all over him. They let him have it. The cajoled, threatened, yelled and pleaded for him to quit driving. I said nothing. I knew he felt like driving was badge of his independence.
Spoiling for a fight, he asked me if >> I << thought he should quit driving. Dunno, I said.
I told him, I look at it this way: while he is physically impaired, mentally he is pretty well up to snuff. He agreed. So I told him, if he is comfortable with taking my mother's life into his hands every time he gets behind the wheel it is up to him. If he is sure that he still has the reflexes to get them out of trouble in traffic, then he should go for it.
After all, if he hits a pole and kills my mother or smashes her to bits, he knew what he was doing, right? I told he I KNEW he had though that all the way through. I pointed out to him how odd it was that the driver usually survived in collisions, but the passengers didn't usually fare to well.
I pointed out that it was odd that he was having a fender bender or worse every 90 days or so, but I figured he didn't really have much to do with that since they weren't his fault.
I did voice one concern to him though, and this may have tipped it. I told him that only he would know exactly how good he was in traffic, and I only had a couple of thoughts on that. It was easy for him to concede that he might not be as good a driver as he was years ago, but he was sure he was better than most on the road.
Good enough, I said. But what if that 10% you have lost kicks in when you are in traffic and you hit another car and hurt someone? An old fart like you, and it may not matter much. But think about your daughter and son in law loaded into their van with the two grandkids coming in for visit. If you killed someone's husband, their kids, or wife, or any combination, could you honestly say you were comfortable with your current skills? Is it fair for you to get behind the wheel and take THEIR life into your hands?
Could you stand in front of someone like your own daughter and tell them you thought you were in fine, perfect shape to be driving after killing one of their kids? Are you that comfortable? I pointed out that it would be a lot to carry for the rest of his life if he knew in his heart he shouldn't really have been driving, and that killing a child would be bad enough, but if you had that nagging feeling that you could be responsible... how in the world could you live with that?
I told him he would have a real test of self resolve for himself there, as I sure couldn't do it. I assured him I wouldn't last a week knowing or even suspecting I was negligent in an avoidable accident of that nature.
I further dismissed his arguments about driving only to and from places close to the house as I reminded him that something like 60% of all accidents happen withing 2-3 miles of a person's house. I was sure he considered that, as after all, hadn't all of his recent spate of accidents happened close to the house?
He was very somber and thoughtful at the end of that visit. About two weeks later, he gave up his keys. I told him I was glad he came to the decision himself, and he allowed he was too.
Tragedy averted.

Be careful what you wish for! I found that the more I do for my parents, they more they expect. Since my sister lives 3 1/2 hours away, it wouldn't be right for them to call her. But since I am 30 minutes away, for the longest time they called me for everything. Strangely, when I ended that practice they became very proud of telling me how independent they were.

A fine line to walk, I'm sure. My folks are now at the point where they are touchy about everything as they feel like their kids would be happy to put them in a home.
She says she's, "just not ready to move," or that, "she's

I don't know LRod. That is REALLY a close call. I am so glad I am not in that position. I think once those elder guys lose their support group, their immediate friends (family doesn't count), and their activities it really takes a hard toll on them. They want to be around folks that are more like them, folks with oxygen bottles, adult diapers, and medical treatments. They want someone they can talk to about "the war", loss of loved ones, etc., and know that the people they are talking to understand. People that are in the same place in their lives; then their infirmaries, and illnesses don't stick out, they are all part of that norm.

Now THAT has to make you chuckle. You know you won't let that happen.

!!!!
a DNR, and some of the other docs you

You know, I thought that would be a tough one for my Mom and Dad, but it wasn't. They had absolutely no heartburn at all in signing that. To keep current, we have that one updated every 24 months, and they still sign away on that.
I your Mom belongs to AARP, they have approved attorneys that specialize in senior affairs, and you can probably get a pretty fair shake on the prices as well. The lady we had here had some accepted, promulgated state forms as well as the forms that had the newest accepted language.
She was a busy lady, and it took almost 2 months to get to an appt. with her. But she had everything ready, and knew what we needed. That was great for all concerned.
Good luck with your situation and all that comes out of it. Sometimes I think I am rowing my own little boat alone, but just look at the good information and thoughts posted right here on this subject. I never had any idea....
I think next something like this comes up it actually deserves its own thread. And of course LRod, I don't know if I could be of any help, but if you had any type of question on this subject you thought I might have an answer to, you can just ping me. (The email address in my header is long defunct).
Robert
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Maybe we just got lucky, Adult Protective Services came to the table and told mom what services were available, what she needed to do to qualify, and even helped with the paper work.
Often got phone calls from Ohio to SoCal advising me with updates of added services mom was qualified to receive.
Have never had a problem involving Medicare/Medicaid as far as receiving a necessary medical service.
Never been a problem receiving an approval that I'm aware of anyway.
(Maybe we should knock on wood<G>.)

Maybe this is one time when being an only child is an advantage.

That makes things tough.

As my mother has said to me, ".. all my peers are gone, and my nieces and nephews are dropping like flies."
SFWIW, she has a 93 year old niece that drove from Indiana to Florida this past January, so they all are dropping like flies just yet.

Now I see why my "Meals on wheels" comment was timely.

Living 2,500 miles away, I faced that question every year when I went back for a vist.
Every year I would ask, "Ma, what if......?"
Every year, the same answer, "I'm going to stay right here im my trailer until the good lord wants me. I'm not what I once was, but I can still take care of myself as long as I can pay to have a few things done from time to time."

Absolutely agree.

Yep.
I offer the same to all who are travelling this road with us.

Good idea.
Lew
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Robert,
Been forwarding your posts to SWMBO for the past few days ... She's toward the end of this journey with her Dad, and this evening she called to say to tell you thanks!
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Well... now that's kind of embarrassing and flattering all at the same time. I don't ever think of any of the words any of us put down here going much further than a few computers, and then only for a day or two.
I truly appreciate the kind thoughts, and for you and Linda to take the time to express them.
Please tell her I will be thinking of her family and her loved ones while in this difficult process. Not that this thought is any consolation, but I have lost a few good friends and almost all of my older relatives (aunts, uncles, etc.) over the past several years. I noticed something with almost all of they elderly ones; they all seemed at a much greater peace with the foreshadowing events than I was.
I admired their inner calm and dignity in their last days. In some strange way their strength helped us all get through that last bad day as well. I hope that for Linda and her father.
Robert
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I dunno. I always used to think my mother was as hardheaded as they come--she'd come back to life and whang me a good one if I called her pigheaded. When she was 80, she had some problems driving. One fine Saturday, she went to an auction, and managed to ding her car on another car's bumper. When she came home, it was, "He was parked in the WRONG spot, sticking way out!" My comment: "Mom, he was sitting still, and not even in the damned car. YOU were driving." She turned in her driver's license about a week later. I won't take credit for her making the change, but it was one little nudge added to the bump. Long time ago. Mom was born in 1910, 10 years after my father.
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