OT: Completely OT: Backfeeding from generator to main

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On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@garagewoodworks.com wrote:

Yes it is. But it would work.
Mark
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snipped-for-privacy@garagewoodworks.com wrote in

Not as long as your main breaker is off. It's illegal, but not dangerous IF the main breaker is off. To make it both safe and legal, use a transfer switch or a mechanical interlock, either of which will enable connecting either the grid or your generator to your panel, but never both at once.

Correct.

Yes -- but only because many people do not realize the literally vital importance of shutting off the main breaker.
A few years ago, a falling tree limb took out the line from the pole to our house. As it was pretty cold out at the time, and SWMBO wanted heat, I hooked up the generator (backfed, with the main breaker off). It was still running when the power company guys showed up. I asked the crew chief if he wanted me to turn off the generator while they made repairs. He asked, "Is your main breaker open?" Understanding the question he did *not* ask, too -- whether I knew enough to understand what he meant -- I responded, "Yes, it's off." He told me I could leave it running. I'm sure they checked the lines anyway.

No problem with the current direction. It's done frequently to feed subpanels.
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snipped-for-privacy@garagewoodworks.com has brought this to us :

This completely OFF TOPIC thread gets blead to death 2 or three times every year. :-@
--
John G

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On Sun, 9 Mar 2014 07:45:30 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@garagewoodworks.com wrote:

It is a bad idea, do not do it, nor even think about it.
If you want to use a circuit like that you must isolate it with line contactor's, and switching relats. Including isolating the grounding circuit. It must be configured in such a way as to be fail safe on switchover. At no time should the C/B be "hot" on both sides. Should you have a bad motor and it fed power back via the grounding circuit and that power phasing did not match up with your power companies phasing you might have on big BOOM!
To backfeed power like as in surplus power there is special panels for this and the AC must be in sync with the power from the electrical company of you will have one HUGE explosion at your power panel as well as possibly electrocuting anyone touching appliances. You just do not know how it can manifest itself and your chances of being lucky are nil.
Please, please call your local union electrician for advice.
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On 3/10/2014 1:47 AM, Sea Blues wrote:

Wow, I guess you missed the question, and must be a union guy...
--
Jeff

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I know how the union trains its people. 7 year apprenticeship program, better than average success of getting a well trained person. (In the trades)
I did not miss the question, there was nothing in there about solar collectors. He speaking of a generator backfeeding an electric drier circuit. He said a 30 amp circuit, usually they are 50 Amp.
I could tell he was unfamiliar with electrical circuits and not used to gerry rigging like you are. So if you honestly think I missed something here, please let me know.
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On 3/10/2014 10:25 AM, Pete wrote:

Actually my Drier is also 30amp, so is my water heater. My stove is 50amp... so he may have been correct.
My problem with the union is how slow they work. Union saved this country, then they destroyed this country. My BIL owns a union business. What he pays workers is ridiculous. They make way more than I do, yes they have to pay union dues which give back a lot, but these guys are making a killing. Are they better, NO. He is getting killed by non-union guys. What's funny is it takes his guys longer to complete the job than the non-union, and he keeps complaining that they can't compete based on price and timeline.
--
Jeff

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On 3/10/2014 10:35 AM, woodchucker wrote:

If it was 1930, I'd be a Union organizer. The did a lot of good for the workers. In the 1960s and on, they did more for themselves than the workers. Never joined one, never will. I've got stories from the negotiating table.
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On 3/10/2014 11:38 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I had to join one in my younger days, they were more about collecting dues... and the union, some of these guys were fat cats not interested in anything but their fat paychecks..
The motto was slow down... If you worked too hard (just barely working) you got swatted for working too hard, and not being a good union guy.
I never wanted to work for a union again. Think about it, union is about as un American as it gets... more like a communistic system. Everyone gets the same wage regardless of their effort.. or lack of it.
--
Jeff

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Pre-OSHA, unions had a purpose. Remember the company store? The death rate in mines? Ever read _The Jungle_?
Since OSHA, unions are, as you say, make-work programs for the lazy.
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wrote:

OSHA means little unless someone on the job squeals. Insurance companies and their requirements/premium schedule often do a better job.
Lazy people on the west coast are terminated by various means. The laziest people are the sons of non-union owners.
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On 3/10/2014 3:18 PM, Pete wrote:

We have annual inspections by insurance carriers, both workman's comp. and building insurance. OSHA does have a good side though, and they have overall made the workplace safer. I don't agree with every rule though.
Last union shop I worked at, the workers were exploited by the union. The business manager would drive up in his big Caddy paid for by the dues of unskilled workers. To give you an idea how bad this union was, we paid the workers about 20% more than called for in the contract. Union boss only wanted the contribution to the unions health and welfare benefit.
As for the boss's son being lazy, that is true in at least 80% of family owned businesses from what I've seen. Dad builds up a business for 30 years, dies, and the kids run it into the ground in six months.
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I'm in line with your here.

I have seen similar, but it was usually someone in the Union being bought off to keep new contracts down via minimal wage increase or health benefits. I despised those guys.

Sad but true. The odd thing is that sometimes one son will but heads with their day, and hard until they leave and go work elsewhere. When they do about ten years down the road they make up with their dads since they found out what makes businesses work, those are the ones who do well. Even if they lose part of the business to lazy brothers they will survive to carry on the family name.
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I've been competing with non-union contractors also. Yes, sometimes they pick up jobs and I know from material costs they were undercutting themselves and may be trying to make it up on the backend with addons. I have not found the union guys any slower, they all know what we are up against. So do the union bosses, so they cut us a break.
I have picked up failed non-union jobs that had to be almost totally redone. Not per spec and also not fully to code. So unless they are paying off the inspectors the city, county or whatever will usually make it a level playing field. BTW most non-union guys are hiring illegals, they may work hard but they do not know the trades per code.
In the end it won't matter, union or non, the minimum wage will kill us all.
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On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 14:19:41 -0400, Mike Marlow

LOL, Wow are you guys sensitive about it. It just happens to be another way of doing business. Yes, I have found top notch people in small shops, the lousy ones go bust. When bidding on large commercial or industrial jobs unless specified otherwise it is Union, and where they do allow non-union companies they now require the employer to pay union scale or near it, plus their employees must meet certain experience levels, near to union training and often verified training in certain area's.
They had to do this because the non-union owners were short sheeting their employee's and pocketing the difference in wages.
In the Union you are allowed to pay over scale, its managements call. I have done that to get and keep the best of the best and was never sorry that I did.
Illegal's are a huge problem and mostly caused by small shops taking advantage of them. They are now in most every trade. Consider yourself fortunate if you don't have to compete against the scum that takes advantage of them.
Union or not, my advice to the original poster remains the same. I have seen panels blow up and frying one to two people in the process. It is not a pretty picture.
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BS My dad was an electrician. Owned his own business. Non Union. He paid his men the same net they would get on a union job (after union dues) His men worked for HIM. If things got slow he didn't lay them off. They got paid full rate sweeping the shop floor, sorting out the trucks, or whatever. Sometimes the went home early and had time with their families. But when things picked up, they knew where they were working, and for whom. And Dad knew who was working for him. Not like the poor union suckers that got laid off when things were slow, then waited at the end of the union line, waiting their turn for their next job - who knows what, where, and foe whom. Turn it down, and you are back at the end of the line. The job lasts 6 weeks? Back at the end of the line. That's no damned way to make a living!!!
And the employer? You take the first warm body in the line. If he's no good, you are stuck with him. Can't even sell the pups. You hire 5 guys, and only the first 2 are any good??? You can't get rid of the last 3 until the first 2 are gone - seniority and all that.
He got busy and had to hire a few new guys Put up an ad and the union sent some guys around. Illegal to ask if they are union members All of a sudden he's in a situation where the union demands certification. Dad told them if they want to run his business, it's for sale. Pay up or shut up. He had no union jobs for the (probationary)union men, so he sent them all home. He and his partner finished the work they had and shut the doors. The union picketed the closed shop for over 6 months.
The poor suckers who signed their union cards go to the union to stand in line for a job, and they don't qualify because they had not been accepted into the union yet. They were PISSED. Most of them started their own non-union companies or joined others, AS PARTNERS so the union couldn't touch them. Dad never had an employee after that, just worked on his own. In residential that works just fine.
And he had a much lower defect rate than just about any of his union competition. Union does not mean competent. And minimum wage does not affect the trades as even labourers are well above minimum wage.
Mabee not in SoCal or Texico, but most certainly in the north.
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On 3/10/2014 4:37 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

And that's the way it is now.. it's a shame. All the politicians pander to union, something that to them makes sense, but kills the USA as a competitor.
Want to be better, don't join a union. Want to be a slacker.. join a union. It is how communism is.. while I don't care about communism, I'm not one of these McCarthy types, it fosters that everyone is equal, whether you work hard or not.. so why should you work hard...
--
Jeff

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Really? 15 bucks minimum wage, for no skill and no motivation? It'll kill everyone.

We keep the best, slow times and busy, if it is really really slow and we start bleeding then we'll let the best go to a friendly competitor that will allow them to return. We have a right of refusal. limited, but for good reason. We don't have to keep slackers.

I understand what you are saying, and agree to an extent as well, but there are many benefits to be had for both the business and the employee with the Union. Regardless of how many places they worked they have the same pension plan, and 30 years in the pension one does just fine, not as good as gov't workers, but fine. Your Dad has to be extra wise to even approx those bennies.
I see many two man shops, that do well, economically you either have to stay small or go large, there are no long term in betweens.

Right now only the utility men are at the bottom near that setting and no benefits. But the talk seems to be going to 15 nation wide.
There are pluses and minuses in everything, we should just do what we think is best. I know out trade schools with the unions here are the best thing going for the guys in the trades, plus training is a lifelong update and most guys, the ones that care, get the specialized and update training most every year. It is also a way of them making more money.
Wish you well.
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That's not how it works with the Unions up here. If you let a guy with higher seniority go ahead of lower seniority you get the union on your neck. If you pay a good worker more than a slacker, they are on you like flies on a turd. Grievances up the ying-yang.

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Let me start off by saying that I have never belonged to a labor union; however, I have benefited from labor union activities.
For example, when the people in the shop got more vacation time or better hospitalization benefits, the folks in the office (that included me), got those benefits.
There is no question that labor unions were allowed to get out of control starting with big steel in the late '50's.
Frankly that was not labor's fault, but rests squarely in the board rooms of the major corporations who were directly affected.
They made short term decisions that got labor back working but in no way addressed the long term needs of the business such as setting aside capital to modernize facilities and develop new products to remain competitive.
By the '80's, things had gotten totally out of control. GM had become an insurance company rather than an auto producer.
Their product line was a disaster.
Steel companies such as US and Bethlehem were gone.
Iacocca didn't have any more silver bullets, Chrysler and their collection of smaller labels were down to their last gasp.
Reagan started his anti-union program which included trickle down economics.
Low skill level jobs were moved off shore.
The middle class is quickly slipping into history.
Right to work states have expanded and really have become what they are, right to work for less states.
FoMoCo would bet the farm, took out tremendous loans, closed plants and looks like a hero these days.
Did labor play a part in this saga?
Absolutely.
"Feather bedding" was rampant, work rules no longer allowed management to effectively manage.
A personal example, my home built in 1963, was wired with knob and tube wiring rather than Romex.
The only other option was conduit.
The union had gotten that concession for wiring residential buildings under the guise of improved safety.
So should we break up the unions or allow them to die by attrition.
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
People who work in many areas of production need the protection provided by a labor contract.
Work a shift in the coke plant of a steel mill.
Stand on the pouring platform of a steel mill while a 12" dia stream of 2,800F molten metal flows into the ingot mold below the ladle. You're standing less than 10 feet from that stream of metal. BTDT.
One screw up and you are vapor.
Take a turn in the casting plant where 400+ engine blocks per hour are cast.
You spend 40 minutes in the plant and 20 minutes outside cooling off which is how they do it.
Take a turn in a stamping plant that knocks out 58 hoods/hr.
The noise levels are unbelievable.
Try an assembly line that has robots, but also needs some human power.
I've been in everyone of the above described places, I wouldn't want to work in any one of them but it's a job and for what ever reason people do these jobs.
They need to know tat if something happens, their families are protected.
Moving forward, labor-management relations need to be developed that are beneficial to all concerned.
Adversarial confrontation won't get the job done any more.
I'm reminded of Lincoln Electric and the book written by James Lincoln, Incentative Management.
No unions at Lincoln, but how many companies pay out Christmas bonuses that can often exceed your annual salary?
Lincoln stated that any cost saving be split 3 ways.
1/3 to the customer. 1/3 to the workers. 1/3 to the company.
Just another way of looking at things.
Off the stump
Lew
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