OT: CFL Bulbs

[Doug Miller]

Spalted Walt wrote in news: [e-mail]:

[...]

... coincident with the shift of manufacturing from the U.S. to China.

My experience matches yours.

[Scott Lurndal]

I'm not sure that I'm following what you're trying to say here. It's not like there is 'excess' power that's being dumped (to ground, for example).

The generation system has a feedback component that causes the generators themselves to control generation such that the amount being used matches the amount being generated (leaving aside inevitable resistive losses).

This feedback component covers normal variations in load. For more substantial changes in load, peaker plants can be ramped up as needed to cover the shortfall. Hydro plants make the best peakers as they don't need to generate steam prior to generating power.

It will, however, cause the generators to generate less electricity which would require less water (Hydro) or burn less fossil fuel (NG/Coal).

There are several million households in the USA. A couple of watts saved at each one adds up to two or three full-sized power-plants.

Sure there is. Water isn't limitless. Once there is no more in storage, there is no more power. There are also other constraints on stored-water generation systems (i.e. releases during fish hatching season or for irrigation purposes).

Consider a pure storage system such as the San Luis Reservoir - water is pumped into the reservoir during the rainy season (at a cost) and released during the dry season (generating power during release).

[clare]

Not true.

Take a gasolinr generator. Runit at no load. Then connect 10 100 watt light bulbs. What happens? The RPM does not change but the throttle opens up, pouring in more fuel to maintain that speed.

Or tske an old carbueted car, let it idle, then turn on thr headlights. What happens to the RPM? - It drops, right?

On new fuel injected cars the aux air valve opens and the injectors open a bit longer to maintain the speed..

Quite a few hydrolelectric plants run pumps to use the excess power, pumping water back UP to a reservoir, which allows them to use the falling water to provide more power when demand is higher.

[Leon]

If you are cutting your yard with a gasoline power mower and you hit a thin spot you leave the motor running at the same speed.

Absolutely however I would not think that the feed back in the grand scheme of things, adding power to the nation wide grid is going to be sensitive to notice a drop in demand from 15 watt light bulbs being turned off. In an off the grid powered single home, absolutely the system will notice.

But the water is replenished mostly by nature. We don't burn fuel to pump water into a lake to feed a dam generator.

I'm not quite following you at to how rain replenishing a reservoir would be a direct cost.

>

[Leon]

I get that but you are making a comparison that is not really a fair comparison.

Take a generation station that produces 1,000,000,000,000,000 watts. Now increase the loaf of 1000, 15 watt bulbs. And I realize that my figures are pretty exaggerated too but light 15 watt light bulbs are nothing compared to everything else that uses electricity. Think the generator will see the load and throttle back? Maybe if the load inceases to match the need of 1000 air conditioners, or water heaters.

[clare]

Because a lawn mower does not have a throttle - it has a governor. When you hit the thin spot the throttle plate in the carb closes to maintain the set speed. When you hit a heavy spot, it opens wide open to again maintain the same RPM. When the throttle plate closes, it uses less fuel.

[clare]

Not a fair comparison? Why not.? By the information I quoted from the US, 15% of power used is for lighting. Turn off the lights and you reduce the load by 15% - to 850,000,000,000,000 watts. It is a matter of scale.

[Leon]

Actually every lawn mower I have had has a throttle and a governor. I control the normal running speed and there is no reduction in speed when the grass becomes thin. It is simply an example of how 2 fewer blades of grass does not justify slowing down the engine.

You can't tell me that any electricity generating plant on the grid is going to notice a few less 15 watt bulbs being turned off.

[Leon]

First off Lighting does consume a lot. But not the lighting in the home. Look at the lighting in a grocery store, lighting of street lights, lighting in 15+ story office buildings. Hell look at the lighting to keep the LasVegas casino streets lit. IIRC 4+ generation stations to just do that. I pay the lighting bills for our neighborhood street lights so I know how much energy that they are using. Each lamp is drawing 350 watts. That is more than 20 times more than my 15 watt bulbs in my house and there are 65 street lights in our neighborhood alone. Do you have 65 lights on in your home?

My comments were aimed at turning off of a few 15 watt lights in a home. Some how this thread has taken off on a tangent of what if?

I believe the original comments are about using CFL or LED lighting.

If 15% is a reasonable figure it has to include mostly 60 watt or more light bulbs. With CFL's and LED that would go back to 15 watts.

So scale back 15% to 3.75% or more considering "ALL" of the lighting in the country, not just the few in your home.

Do I think that turning ALL of the lighting off everywhere will reduce the load by 15%. Absolutely!

Do I think that turning a few lamps off in your home makes a difference? I believe it would be unmeasureable.

[Bill]

"If everyone would sweep his own doorstep, the whole world would be clean!" : )

[Leon]

I'm about there, it is one of weeks.

[clare]

You have ONE control - most people call it the throttle, but it is the speed ajuster for the governor. The governor controls the throttle plate in the carb in reaction to engine speed - it does more than limit the top speed to 3600 RPM or whatever the blade length dictates on today's "safe" mowers.

[clare]

Did you look at the cite I sent the other day? Lighting is 15% of overall consumption and 14% of residential consumption in the USA.

I have about 50 lamps (bulbs) in my home including outdoor lighting and the garage.

The data given was for all of the USA. You can take it or leave it. Loghting is reported as 15% of national electrical use and 14% of residential electrical use in the USA in 2014.

[Leon]

Continuing the pissing contest....

Regardless, the governor does not lower the speed or fuel consumption of the engine whether the the mower is siting on the side walk running at operating speed or cutting an extremely thin spot of grass where the dog has been pissing. The is true for what ever measure electricity providers contributing to the "grid" when a few thousand house holds turn off 3~4 15 watt lights at the same time.

The generators do not recognize a drop in the bucket reduction in demand. If it was that sensitive of a set up we would have continuous brown outs.

I can't put any simpler than this.

[J. Clarke]

I think that some folks here don't grasp the concept of conservation laws. If you turn off a light, the power it was consuming doesn't just keep flowing into empty space.

[clare]

Leon, I had considered you a relatively knowlegeable and iintelligent man. If you believe the governor on an engine does not adust the fuel consumtion of an internal engine according to load, I have to change my opinion of you.

Sorry, I can't put it any simpler than this.

You are delusional.

[clare]

That's not all a lot don't grasp.....

[Leon]

Reread what I said. No where did I mention that a governor does not adjust the fuel to match the load. If you tear yourself away from analyzing my comments to the .000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 degree you might understand what I am saying.

The generating power plants do not have anything so sensitive to see something so small as .000005% load changes. Especially when they are all contributing to an almost incompressible source on the grid.

"Every little bit helps" does not help. It goes unnoticed.

[Leon]

By the way you need to replonk me or do you not understand how to make that stick?

[Leon]

LOL.... It will bite you in the ass every time. That was meant for Clark.

I really think we are saying the same thing but just not quite in a way that we agree on.