OT: CFL Bulbs

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On 1/4/2016 10:21 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

First off Lighting does consume a lot. But not the lighting in the home. Look at the lighting in a grocery store, lighting of street lights, lighting in 15+ story office buildings. Hell look at the lighting to keep the LasVegas casino streets lit. IIRC 4+ generation stations to just do that. I pay the lighting bills for our neighborhood street lights so I know how much energy that they are using. Each lamp is drawing 350 watts. That is more than 20 times more than my 15 watt bulbs in my house and there are 65 street lights in our neighborhood alone. Do you have 65 lights on in your home?
My comments were aimed at turning off of a few 15 watt lights in a home. Some how this thread has taken off on a tangent of what if?
I believe the original comments are about using CFL or LED lighting.
If 15% is a reasonable figure it has to include mostly 60 watt or more light bulbs. With CFL's and LED that would go back to 15 watts.
So scale back 15% to 3.75% or more considering "ALL" of the lighting in the country, not just the few in your home.
Do I think that turning ALL of the lighting off everywhere will reduce the load by 15%. Absolutely!
Do I think that turning a few lamps off in your home makes a difference? I believe it would be unmeasureable.
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Leon wrote:

clean!" : )
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On 1/5/2016 9:31 AM, Bill wrote:

I'm about there, it is one of weeks.
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Did you look at the cite I sent the other day? Lighting is 15% of overall consumption and 14% of residential consumption in the USA.
I have about 50 lamps (bulbs) in my home including outdoor lighting and the garage.

The data given was for all of the USA. You can take it or leave it. Loghting is reported as 15% of national electrical use and 14% of residential electrical use in the USA in 2014.

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Talk about unfair comparisons. A large generation station may produce 1,000,000,000 watts (1000 MW).
The generator will automatically compensate for changes in real power demand (generally by varying frequency, augmented by AGC).
For larger changes (e.g. everyone turning on their HVAC plant at the same time):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_following_power_plant
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2215098615001159
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On 1/3/2016 11:10 AM, Dan Coby wrote:

Your theory is correct, but in practice it is a bit different. Have you operated a steam boiler? They can be modulated for output, but they don't react quite like the throttle on your car. If demand changes quickly, the boiler will lag. If the boiler is down it can take a while to get to operating pressure. If demand suddenly drops, pressure has to be bled off as the boiler will continue to produce steam for a time after it is shut down. Our operation at work is much smaller and less sophisticated than a power plant, but boilers are started 20 to 30 minutes before production and are shut down 15 to 20 minutes before production stops.
At home, the voltage at my house is higher at 6:30 AM than it is at 7:30 when industry is coming on line. I know this from burning out bulbs, checking voltage and conversations with the power company.Power plants also keep a boiler or two hot in anticipation of loads or emergency shutdown of the present boiler on line.
At about 4 PM the power company would like to see you start doing the laundry and running your dryer.
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On 1/3/2016 1:43 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

And not to mention the fact the home lighting probably represents less than 5% of the energy used. I doubt that if everyone in a city turned off half their lights at once that the power company would make an adjustment much less maybe even notice the drop in usage.
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I think your estimate is low by a factor of about 3

2014, about 412 billion kilowatthours (kWh) of electricity were used for lighting by the residential sector and the commercial sector in the United States. This was about 15% of the total electricity consumed by both of these sectors and about 11% of total U.S. electricity consumption.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id &t=3
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On Sun, 03 Jan 2016 18:15:52 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

And one line below what I quoted is this gem:
Residential lighting consumption was about 150 billion kWh or about 14% of total residential electricity consumption.
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On 1/3/2016 5:15 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Perhaps but the power companies are not going to drop electricity generation because lights bulbs are being turned off. They don't want brown outs. Consumers compelled to "save the planet" by changing thermostats, or getting more efficient systems/better insulation and or changing to bulbs that use less energy.

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On 1/3/2016 11:43 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Ed,
I do agree with your comments about the need for extra boiler capacity to buffer load variations and the lags involved in operating a boiler. I did not bring them into my original comments to try to keep the level of complexity in this discussion reasonable.
> At home, the voltage at my house is higher at 6:30 AM than it is at 7:30 > when industry is coming on line. I know this from burning out bulbs, > checking voltage and conversations with the power company.Power plants > also keep a boiler or two hot in anticipation of loads or emergency > shutdown of the present boiler on line.
I suspect that the reason that the voltage at your house is higher at 6:30 AM and then drops at 7:30 AM is due to the increased voltage drops in your local distribution system as loads increase. I do not think that your local power company is allowing their generator voltages to drop as the load increases. That sort of operating strategy would create problems since their grid is also connected to the national grids.
> At about 4 PM the power company would like to see you start doing the > laundry and running your dryer.
The power companies would definitely love having a constant load. This would allow them to maximize their profits.
Dan
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On 1/1/2016 10:26 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:

I have a hard time understanding your third sentence. This is AC alternating current. It is the same regardless to a bulb. it alternates back and forth.
MORE CURRENT? It's the same regardless. it alternates back and forth. It has nothing to do with more current, not for a bulb. The incandescent bulb does not know hot from cold.
--
Jeff

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wrote:

to burn out faster - and he is right.- because higher voltage causes higher current and more heat (watts)
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On 1/2/2016 3:04 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Geez I missed that. Thanks for the clarifcation Clare.
--
Jeff

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says...

??? Incandescent bulbs are almost purely resistive loads. I=E/R. Increase E you increase I in direct proportion. More current means more heat.
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On Sat, 2 Jan 2016 15:56:09 -0500, "J. Clarke"

They're resistive in the sense that they aren't reactive (capacitive or inductive) but incandescent bulb filaments have a very high temperature coefficient. The higher the voltage, the higher the resistance. In fact, over a fairly wide range of voltage, incandescent lamps make pretty decent constant current sources) and are often used as such). Yes, the bulb certainly does "know" hot from cold. That's why the resistance changes over temperature (power).
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change in step with the voltage. Increasing voltage still causes increased power consumption - and the greatest non-linearity is at the "cold" end of the spectrum. When dead cold they are pretty close to a short, and the resistance increases quickly as the fillament starts to "glow" The resistance change from the "emitting" point on up is relatively insignificant in comparison
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On Sat, 02 Jan 2016 20:22:41 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

No, it changes with temperature, which changes (A *LOT*) with voltage.

The difference in resistance is, of course, larger when the bulb is cold because it heats very quickly, causing the resistance to go up quickly. However, if you increase the voltage 10% the current does not go up 10% because the filament will be hotter and a higher resistance. The power is not proportional to V^2, like a pure resistor, rather closer to being proportional to V.
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Actually the cold Tungsten, a brittle fibrous metal, conducts about 10 times the current when cold than hot. The inrush current is high. That is why bulbs blow when you switch them on rather than during the day/night. The bending and flexing of the filament brings on the short life. Long life bulbs we use in barns and basketball courts.... are 140v bulbs and have a mid wire bridge wire that keeps the wire from flexing to far. They sometimes have a tiny amount of mercury or silver that reacts to the oxygen left in the bulb as well as any that comes out of the filament as it is heated.
Martin
On 1/2/2016 5:02 PM, krw wrote:

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You'll have to look hard to find an LED that generates as much heat as even a 25W incandescent. The LEDs convert nearly all of the power they consume into light, and emit very very little heat.
The "100W" LEDs are actually 100W-equivalent -- that is, they emit about the same amount of light as a 100W incandescent bulb, but since they emit almost no heat the power consumption will be more like 15 watts.
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