OT: CFL Bulbs

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It's never bothered either of us.

There are no windows where I work. :-(
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+1
"What the heck.. I only leave lights on when I need them. I hope you guys reconsider, that we have enough things consuming juice. All the transformers, TV's, we don't need to keep lights on for vanity reasons."
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We leave our front porch and coach lights on 24/365. We do it for security and never have to remember to turn on and off.
FWIW a DVR probably uses more elec than our 4 outside lights. And on top of that, electricity is not produced to precisely meet demand, quite a bit is over produced and goes to waste regardless if you use it or not.
Most energy conservationists do so until they get tired of waiting for their dish DVR to reboot.
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On 1/3/2016 6:31 AM, Leon wrote:

The power companies have to have more generating capacity online than is currently being used to allow for variation in the demand for electricity. However that does not mean that they are actually producing more electricity than is being used.
When you turn on a light bulb, a little more current is drawn from the generator. The turbine driving that generator has to supply a little more power to drive the generator. If it is a steam turbine then a little more steam needs to be made to drive the turbine. To make the steam, a little more fuel (coal, gas, nuclear, etc.) needs to be burned.
When you turn off the light, the generator supplies a little less power. The turbine uses less power to drive the generator. Less steam is needed to drive the turbine. Less fuel is used.
If there is not a balance between the power being created and what is consumed then the generator would either speed up or slow down. To prevent that from happening the control systems for the boiler/turbine/generator adjust the amount of steam produced to meet the electricity needed from the generator. The steam boiler and the rotational inertia of the turbine/generator provide a buffer to meet instantaneous unbalances in the demand and demand. However the control system has to bring the supply back into balance with the demand.
Dan
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On 1/3/2016 10:10 AM, Dan Coby wrote:

I pretty much know how all of that works but if they were not always overly generating we would be having constant brown outs. Wind and Dam generators require no more energy to be consumed to generate energy.
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Leon wrote:

I always thought Nueces county would be a good site for wind turbines since the wind blows there nearly all the time. And maybe the turbines would swat some of those huge mosquitoes.
--
GW Ross

Warranty voided upon receipt of final
  Click to see the full signature.
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On 1/3/2016 1:18 PM, G. Ross wrote:

No Kidding!!! I grew up there, Corpus Christi, and I vividly remember letting wind power push us down the sidewalks on our skate boards.
I wrapped a large piece of cardboard around me to get started and would unfold my arms to spread the card board to increase wind resistance/speed. My first attempt with a 2'x3' piece of plywood resulted in me being knocked off of the skate board immediately. ;~)
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On 1/3/2016 8:31 AM, Leon wrote:

Perhaps we have a difference about the definition of 'always overly generating'. I agree that they have need to have more generating capacity running than they are actually using to prevent brownouts. However that generating capacity is not producing more electricity than is actually being consumed (including distribution losses). If the turbines (or whatever is driving the generators) were producing more power than what is being consumed by the generators (produced electric power and generating losses) then the system would be unbalanced. As a result, the entire system would try to speed up or dump power into the national grids and try to speed up the national grids. That does not happen because the control systems try to maintain balance by throttling the turbines.
> Wind and Dam generators require no more energy to be consumed to > generate energy.
Dam generators do require more water flow to generate more power.
Wind turbines are pretty much getting free energy to drive their generators (ignoring initial and maintenance costs). If we had enough wind capacity to supply our energy needs then I would be in more agreement with your initial statement: 'quite a bit is over produced and goes to waste regardless if you use it or not'. However we do not have that much wind generation capacity. We are still paying the fuel costs for most of our power generation. That fuel cost is directly related to the amount of electricity produced.
We do not generate more electricity than we consume and then waste the rest.
Dan
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wrote:

Not to mention that for every kWh of wind (or solar) generation capability on the grid, another kWh of coal/oil/nuke/hydro generation has to be paid for. The only "free lunch" is the fuel cost. The rest of the costs are duplicated.

True.
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On 1/3/2016 8:08 PM, Dan Coby wrote:

The point I am trying to make is that the same energy is being consumed to produce electricity whether the electricity is being used or not. Turning off a light bulb is not going to save the energy that is being consumed to generate electricity.
And originally the point I was making that turning off a few lights in your home might add up to a few dollars consumer savings over the course of a year but hundreds of thousands of households will have to all participate in turning off lights to "maybe" show up as a drop in demand a percent or two if that much.

Yes but not at a cost.

Correct, unless any of it is being stored, but the power companies do use more energy to guard against brown outs, and that energy is going to waste if not used.

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I'm not sure that I'm following what you're trying to say here. It's not like there is 'excess' power that's being dumped (to ground, for example).
The generation system has a feedback component that causes the generators themselves to control generation such that the amount being used matches the amount being generated (leaving aside inevitable resistive losses).
This feedback component covers normal variations in load. For more substantial changes in load, peaker plants can be ramped up as needed to cover the shortfall. Hydro plants make the best peakers as they don't need to generate steam prior to generating power.

It will, however, cause the generators to generate less electricity which would require less water (Hydro) or burn less fossil fuel (NG/Coal).

There are several million households in the USA. A couple of watts saved at each one adds up to two or three full-sized power-plants.

Sure there is. Water isn't limitless. Once there is no more in storage, there is no more power. There are also other constraints on stored-water generation systems (i.e. releases during fish hatching season or for irrigation purposes).
Consider a pure storage system such as the San Luis Reservoir - water is pumped into the reservoir during the rainy season (at a cost) and released during the dry season (generating power during release).
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On 1/4/2016 1:02 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

If you are cutting your yard with a gasoline power mower and you hit a thin spot you leave the motor running at the same speed.

Absolutely however I would not think that the feed back in the grand scheme of things, adding power to the nation wide grid is going to be sensitive to notice a drop in demand from 15 watt light bulbs being turned off. In an off the grid powered single home, absolutely the system will notice.

But the water is replenished mostly by nature. We don't burn fuel to pump water into a lake to feed a dam generator.

I'm not quite following you at to how rain replenishing a reservoir would be a direct cost.

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Because a lawn mower does not have a throttle - it has a governor. When you hit the thin spot the throttle plate in the carb closes to maintain the set speed. When you hit a heavy spot, it opens wide open to again maintain the same RPM. When the throttle plate closes, it uses less fuel.

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On 1/4/2016 10:16 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Actually every lawn mower I have had has a throttle and a governor. I control the normal running speed and there is no reduction in speed when the grass becomes thin. It is simply an example of how 2 fewer blades of grass does not justify slowing down the engine.
You can't tell me that any electricity generating plant on the grid is going to notice a few less 15 watt bulbs being turned off.
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You have ONE control - most people call it the throttle, but it is the speed ajuster for the governor. The governor controls the throttle plate in the carb in reaction to engine speed - it does more than limit the top speed to 3600 RPM or whatever the blade length dictates on today's "safe" mowers.
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On 1/5/2016 12:00 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Continuing the pissing contest....
Regardless, the governor does not lower the speed or fuel consumption of the engine whether the the mower is siting on the side walk running at operating speed or cutting an extremely thin spot of grass where the dog has been pissing. The is true for what ever measure electricity providers contributing to the "grid" when a few thousand house holds turn off 3~4 15 watt lights at the same time.
The generators do not recognize a drop in the bucket reduction in demand. If it was that sensitive of a set up we would have continuous brown outs.
I can't put any simpler than this.
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Leon, I had considered you a relatively knowlegeable and iintelligent man. If you believe the governor on an engine does not adust the fuel consumtion of an internal engine according to load, I have to change my opinion of you.
Sorry, I can't put it any simpler than this.
You are delusional.
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On 1/5/2016 10:24 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Reread what I said. No where did I mention that a governor does not adjust the fuel to match the load. If you tear yourself away from analyzing my comments to the .000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 degree you might understand what I am saying.
The generating power plants do not have anything so sensitive to see something so small as .000005% load changes. Especially when they are all contributing to an almost incompressible source on the grid.
"Every little bit helps" does not help. It goes unnoticed.
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On 1/5/2016 10:37 PM, Leon wrote:

By the way you need to replonk me or do you not understand how to make that stick?
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On 1/5/2016 10:39 PM, Leon wrote:

LOL.... It will bite you in the ass every time. That was meant for Clark.
I really think we are saying the same thing but just not quite in a way that we agree on.
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