OT - Carpenters and Programmers

I read more on this discussion list than I post and one thing I have noticed is that there are quite a number of programmers (and IT people in general) that are also woodworkers. Being a programmer myself, I find that really interesting.
You may or may not know that it is a scary thing being in the IT field now with the huge push towards off-shore outsourcing to new products being "hot" every day to employers wanting people with three-years experience on a product that has been on the market for two-and-a-half years.
I came across this comparison of if a carpenter were hired lke a programmer and thought is was approriate to send to the group:
Interviewer: So, you're a carpenter, are you?
Carpenter: That's right, that's what I do.
Interviewer: How long have you been doing it?
Carpenter: Ten years.
Interviewer: Great, that's good. Now, I have a few technical questions to ask you to see if you're a fit for our team. OK?
Carpenter: Sure, that'd be fine.
Interviewer: First of all, we're working in a subdivision building a lot of brown houses. Have you built a lot of brown houses before?
Carpenter: Well, I'm a carpenter, so I build houses, and people pretty much paint them the way they want.
Interviewer: Yes, I understand that, but can you give me an idea of how much experience you have with brown? Roughly.
Carpenter: Gosh, I really don't know. Once they're built I don't care what color they get painted. Maybe six months?
Interviewer: Six months? Well, we were looking for someone with a lot more brown experience, but let me ask you some more questions.
Carpenter: Well, OK, but paint is paint, you know.
Interviewer: Yes, well. What about walnut?
Carpenter: What about it?
Interviewer: Have you worked much with walnut?
Carpenter: Sure, walnut, pine, oak, mahogany -- you name it.
Interviewer: But how many years of walnut do you have?
Carpenter: Gosh, I really don't know -- was I supposed to be counting the walnut?
Interviewer: Well, estimate for me.
Carpenter: OK, I'd say I have a year and a half of walnut.
Interviewer: Would you say you're an entry level walnut guy or a walnut guru?
Carpenter: A walnut guru? What's a walnut guru? Sure, I've used walnut.
Interviewer: But you're not a walnut guru?
Carpenter: Well, I'm a carpenter, so I've worked with all kinds of wood, you know, and there are some differences, but I think if you're a good carpenter ...
Interviewer: Yes, yes, but we're using Walnut, is that OK?
Carpenter: Walnut is fine! Whatever you want. I'm a carpenter.
Interviewer: What about black walnut?
Carpenter: What about it?
Interviewer: Well we've had some walnut carpenters in here, but come to find out they weren't black walnut carpenters. Do you have black walnut experience?
Carpenter: Sure, a little. It'd be good to have more for my resume, I suppose.
Interviewer: OK. Hang on let me check off the box...
Carpenter: Go right ahead.
Interviewer: OK, one more thing for today. We're using Rock 5.1 to bang nails with. Have you used Rock 5.1?
Carpenter: [Turning white...] Well, I know a lot of carpenters are starting to use rocks to bang nails with since Craftsman bought a quarry, but you know, to be honest I've had more luck with my nail gun. Or a hammer, for that matter. I find I hit my fingers too much with the rock, and my other hand hurts because the rock is so big.
Interviewer: But other companies are using rocks. Are you saying rocks don't work?
Carpenter: No, I'm not saying rocks don't work, exactly, it's just that I think nail guns work better.
Interviewer: Well, our architects have all started using rocks, and they like it.
Carpenter: Well, sure they do, but I bang nails all day, and -- well, look, I need the work, so I'm definitely willing to use rocks if you want. I try to keep an open mind.
Interviewer: OK, well we have a few other candidates we're looking at, so we'll let you know.
Carpenter: Well, thanks for your time. I enjoyed meeting you.
NEXT DAY:
Ring...
Interviewer: Hello?
Carpenter: Hello. Remember me, I'm the carpenter you interviewed for the black walnut job. Just wanted to touch base to see if you've made a decision.
Interviewer: Actually, we have. We liked your experience overall, but we decided to go with someone who has done a lot of work with brown.
Carpenter: Really, is that it? So I lost the job because I didn't have enough brown?
Interviewer: Well, it was partly that, but partly we got the other fellow a lot cheaper.
Carpenter: Really -- how much experience does he have?
Interviewer: Well, he's not really a carpenter, he's a car salesman -- but he's sold a lot of brown cars and he's worked with walnut interiors.
Carpenter: [click]
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On 19 Dec 2003 07:03:52 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@thesafety.net (Ray Kinzler) wrote:

Yep. I've got experience with Oracle 8, Unix, C++, SQL, Access, and now unemployed. I've read 1 in ten IT jobs are now outsourced. And, when I get an interview (if I'm lucky) the interviewer is spouting off specific versions of software. It's humiliating, depressing. But I'm learning how to do without insurance and medication I need, and how to get free wood!
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My wife who was a former DB2 programmer and a stay at home mom had just this year decided to get back to work. I told her to read this article: http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/story/0,10801,80661,00.html
She is now back at school getting her teachers certification.
I work for the Big Evil Empire O and they and every oneof my customers are outsourcing or moving offshore including the Big O. Last July, they laid off some my friends and colleagues the same day they announced 5000 new jobs in India.
It is friggin scary because it is not just IT. These friggin comapnies are gonna outsource us into a huge economic mess. It is a cancer.
All I can tell you is to look for a smaller company. Good Luck
(Ray Kinzler)

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It's not all one way... the pendulum still swings, maybe.
See <http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/34582.html
djb
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There are no socks in my email address.

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On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:18:33 -0500, "RKON"

This is tragic. My career is doomed! It looks like a long long recovery in IT, if it ever recovers. Getting a degree in computer science was a definate mistake in my life. <sigh>...
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Have you brushed up on your Oracle skills? There is great demand for Oracle.
wrote:

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The last time I used Oracle was 2000. I used it heavily for 8 years, under VMS, Unix, and (to a lessor degree) Windows. There's no way to "brush up" on Oracle skills without a job or a few thousand training dollars, though. I thought about spending for more training (like I did for C++), but then there's no jobs. Can not afford to relocate, unless I sell all my shop tools and who wants that? Where is this demand for Oracle? I've seen DBA jobs, but all I have is application development (screens, menus, reports, triggers, reports, etc).
On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 14:56:11 -0500, "RKON"

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There is still a demand for People With PL/SQL skills using Oracle Portal and Oracle Development. Go to their site otn.oracle.com and sign up it is free. You can download any of their software ( Linux, Win), load it up and look for their self study training (OBE - Oracle by Example).
check out http://www.justoraclejobs.com/ there are jobs out there.
Don't give up
Rich
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Take a look at www.affhc.com -- it's not as good as insurance, and doesn't make a good substitute for major medical, but it *is* better than nothing. -- Howard
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I worked my arse off to get out of maintenance and into an IT job. Now I find fixing CNC equipment is a steady paycheck. Actually it pays better than the IT jobs I was able to interview for.
I'm just waiting for the company to off shore the manufacturing that I support...
Wes
Former Novell/Linux sysadmin, Clipper, Dataflex, GML, Karel, Ladder Logic programmer.
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You hit the nail on the head (with the Craftsman rock) with this one.
Actually I think the processes involved with code grunting and wood dorking are similar: characterize a problem, formulate a solution, implement the solution, put on the finishing touches, admire your work, wait for the accolades to come pouring in. The final step oftimes takes a while, perhaps never if you do operating systems.     mahalo,     jo4hn
Ray Kinzler wrote:

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Ahhhh. Now I understand why software is as it is. As a former hardware engineer the process we used always included the "test, debug, redesign, & qualification" steps. LMAO.
Art

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jo4hn wrote:

Woodworking is a lot easier. Bugs are extremely rare, and when they happen, I can whack them with a rock.
Also, there's no compile time at all.
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Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan < snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net>
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Your analogy is so very, incredibly, and depressingly true.
--jra
On 19 Dec 2003 07:03:52 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@thesafety.net (Ray Kinzler) wrote:

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I'm a machinist. How many American made goods do you see anymore? It's happening to everyone. It will end when the corperate types that are buying cheap somewhere else and selling here don't have customers anymore because there job has gone elswhere.
(Ray Kinzler)

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I need a trailer hitch ball for my reciever hitch. I checked a number of stores and never found one that was made in America, Canada, or even Mexico. All China. I'd really like an US made item since it might just meet ASTM / ANSI / SAE specs.
Outside of my recently purchased used Saturn SL1, I have not purchased much of anything manufactured in the US lately. It is scary. Buy US, HOW?
Wes
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On 19 Dec 2003 07:03:52 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@thesafety.net (Ray Kinzler) brought forth from the murky depths:

Cutting, pounding, lifting, and scraping all provide a physical release of mental stress.
(STRESS - The confusion created when one's mind overrides the body's basic desire to choke the living shit out of some asshole who desperately deserves it.)

The good part is that those doing the hiring are completely out of the loop when it comes to knowing a single thing about the processes for which they are hiring.

That happened to me today. 3 weeks ago, a guy sent an email to me asking for a quote on a couple pages (not realizing that what he wanted would take about 6 pages, 2 databases, and several forms). I sent a followup email today and he responded that my price was double that of the original programmer. I figured that it probably would not be in my best interest to point out the truth:
1) Neither page currently worked. 2) Neither page was programmed to take input. 3) Neither page was programmed to output to database. 4) There were no admin pages to view the output. 5) The pages had not been spell/grammar-checked.
I pointed out that my quote probably gave him more options than the original and showed him how many differences there were. I then closed with a note that I'd welcome other opportunities to serve him in the future. (If everything were peachy, why did he even -contact- me?)
Apples and hammers. Ain't work great?
========================================================= Save the + http://www.diversify.com Endangered SKEETS! + Web Application Programming =========================================================
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snipped-for-privacy@thesafety.net (Ray Kinzler) wrote:

Definitely a couple of chuckles, but it's too true to be really funny.
As bleak as things appear for us software types, there does seem to be a turnaround coming in IT. About 2 years late for me...
However, much to my utter astonishment, I happened across a contract last week. Heard about the contract on Wednesday, interviewed on the phone that night, got an offer Thursday morning, accepted and filled in the paperwork Friday, and showed up for work Monday morning -- when they saw my gray hair for the very first time.
Another week, I should have a good idea of whether the job will last, but I think it's good for 6 months.
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I don't think it's just the IT field. I'm an engineer for a "large aerospace company" and we're not sure who will be left in a few years. I think the company will consist of 100 executives and all the work will be outsourced. I made a trip to South America earlier this year to talk with a company we're thinking of outsourcing some of our work to. Turns out they were too expensive (only 1/3 of our cost instead of 1/5 the cost like we'd hoped) so we're looking elsewhere. I'm at that awkward age (47) where I don't want to start over and I might be too far away from retirement to survive until then.
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Larry C in Auburn, WA

"Ray Kinzler" < snipped-for-privacy@thesafety.net> wrote in message
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