OT: Carbon credits

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Revivul wrote:

Well, you did say: "Reduce our dependence on fossil fuel ... dramatically," and the presumption is that you want that eventuality enforced or encouraged by the government.
To me, there seems three ways to accomplish that which you adore:
* A cheaper alternative to fossile fules is found, * Government imposes rationing or subsidies of some kind, * Government imposes a return to living off gathered nuts and berries.
I'd rather prefer the first.
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wrote:

Why, how, by whom, with what capital??
The thousands upon thousands upon thousand of pages Tax Code is chock full of social engineering elements.
So ... OUR government -- in that regard -- practices the "kind of control" that 'Mark & Juanita' overtly decried.
I'll presume he/she/they actually DID know that. How could anybody NOT? I presume he/she/they will now seek to relocate (to ... ???).
Wars predicated on other causes, but ... suspiciously centered in oil-rich nations ... are de facto oil subsidies, no?
What's wrong with subsidies to switch us OFF OF fossil fuels ... asap ... instead/in addition??
I'm genuinely interested in an other-than-ideological argument.
As a former VP of a couple of NYSE-traded companies ... smart CEOs and execs get AHEAD of things like this. The more consolidated the control of finite oil resources IS, the more victimized by other-than-market-based pricing we will be.
Anybody that's watched Big Oil in recent decades ... knows that's already starting.
So ... why not??
No troll. Sorry. Just the anomalous poster, here, that doesn't think ... the way so many of you do ... and ... comes to his positions through listening to LOTS of valid argument ... not just the ones that appeal most to my closely-held positions ;-)
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On 1/9/2010 1:21 PM, Revivul wrote:

As I said, you talk a good game, but until YOU actually stop talking and start doing you are still nothing but a "hypocrite".
See above ...
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I'll try your method, too:
Thanks. I presume you insist that Bill Gates live in his car before he tries to address the poverty issue?
Your turn.
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Oh, yes, it is -- because Bill Gates is doing that voluntarily, and not attempting to force anyone else to do the same.

Pot, kettle,...
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On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 19:39:29 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

No. The answer is simpler than that.
One doesn't have to live in a cave to suggest that we should reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, primarily by moving toward cleaner renewables.
Gore switched to a HUGE % renewables to power his mansion. I, too, buy my electricity from a wind farm.
That does NOT make me, or Gore, hypocrites -- repitition notwithstanding.
The notion of reduced greenhouse gasses doesn't depend on cave-dwellers. It depends on cleaner, renewable sources of energy.

I missed my black/white argument. I'd be ever so grateful if you'd point it out to me.
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Have you given up your car yet?

Uh-huh. Sure. Last I checked, he was still using an order of magnitude more resources than the average American -- while telling the *rest* of us to reduce *our* consumption.

What, they've hooked up a turbine to Gore's mouth?

No, it's Gore's enormous use of energy, while telling everyone else to reduce theirs, that makes him a hypocrite.
And it's you telling other people to reduce dependence on fossil fuels, while you still drive a car, that makes you a hypocrite.

Get back to me after you've switched to a bicycle for transportation.

I was referring to looking silly.
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On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:30:56 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Mostly, but ... that's just all/nothing logic again.

Thanks for ignoring the IMPORTANT point: clean renewables: use all you want.

You folks really should get out more. Google "confirmation bias." This ng tends to be a re-run of Limbaugh's radio shows.

Ibid.
Ibid.
Ibid.
Ibid.
You're being ridiculous. You're using a straw man argument -- arguing against an argument of your OWN creation.
That's very silly.
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When available.
<http://coastobs.pol.ac.uk/cobs/met/hilbre/getimage.php?code=5&span=1
I know someone who works for Ontario Hydro, or whatever it's called these days. He laughs at wind and solar. It's far too unreliable to be anything but peripheral.
He's explained to me how the grid actually works. There are times when the utility has to fire up ginormous electric motors to use the EXCESS power flowing into the grid to keep things balanced.
I don't claim to understand enough to make pronouncements on electric utility policy, but I understand enough to know that 99.9% of people making pronouncements don't have a friggin' clue about the subject.
You included.
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On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 15:34:23 -0600, Dave Balderstone

I'm sorry, but ... can somebody tell me when we finished building the infrastructure for a diversified renewable power supply?
I don't recall us really even starting.....
Please tell me where my facts are in error. It's childish and wrong to say that ... I ... like 99.9% of people ... don't have a friggin' clue about the subject.
I'll wait.
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Actually, I got the important point, which you missed: the hypocrisy of someone who uses an order of magnitude more energy than the average person, telling the average people they need to reduce *their* consumption while doing nothing to reduce his own.
Sorry that was so hard for you that I had to explain it twice.
Remainder snipped, as I have no desire to explain *all* of it twice.
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On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 23:37:25 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Ability, actually. Desire is a secondary impediment.
You cannot understand -- or you could readily explain -- the difference between fossil fuels and renewables.
Your argument is similar to calling me a hypocrite for the 5,500 miles I make each year.
Except that ... I make them on my bicycle.
The fact that you don't *understand* the difference .... means only that: you don't understand it.
But the difference is enormous.
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"Revivul" wrote

makes me respond so quickly. You have just cycled your way into my killfile.
How many carbon credits do I get for killfiling a greenie?
Think of all the bandwidth and bits I am saving!
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On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 20:05:29 -0500, "Lee Michaels"

YOU weren't even capable of understanding WHY I posted that.
Wow!!
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And you persist in missing the point.
After three times around, I can only assume it's intentional.
<plonk>
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wrote:

Did you see his e-mail addy?
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On Sat, 9 Jan 2010 21:35:05 -0500, "Lee Michaels"

You might also judge me a troll if you heard how silly my middle name is.
Sometimes, it's better to address the arguments that somebody makes (as distinct from the arguments that you wish he HAD made -- the obvious practice of some/many on this ng).
Unless you can't.
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On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 01:16:29 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Ouch.
You're point is irrelevant. You attack others, but don't understand the argument they're making, so ... you make up a position and ascribe it to them.
But you're wrong.
After three times around, I can only assume it's intentional.
But ... while plonking is a coward's way out ... posting to let others know that you chose to do it ... more so :-)
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On 1/9/2010 6:51 PM, Revivul wrote:

Considering the sheer amount of non-renewable resources used in manufacturing all those millions of Lance Armstrong wannabe outfits ...
Let me guess, your bicycle is a wooden Flintstone model, with stone wheels. :)
Just kidding you ... you seem like a nice enough guy and your heart is obviously in the right place, if a bit idealistic.
That will improve with age ... good luck to you. :)
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"Doug Miller" wrote:

I take it you have seen one of Gore's electricity bills.
Are you sworn to secrecy or could you share the info with us?
Lew
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