OT: Bush quote

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wrote:

I'd say that also into the mix can be thrown 200+ years of precedent and interpretation. Reading the Constitution in a vacuum might be enlightening, but it has it's limitations.
Joe Barta
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don't go trying to make sense of it, it confuses the neo-cons and the righties...
John E.

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Is your reading comprehension really so poor, or your logic so weak that you don't understand what was clearly written? Or perhaps your viewpoints are simply blinding you to what was so clearly written? You want diatribe? Let me help you with that. Let me put this down in a more simple format:
a) Some dangerous people make it into the US, part of a sleeper cell or otherwise.
b) At the time those people make it into the US, we DON'T KNOW THAT THEY ARE DANGEROUS PEOPLE! They are simply people from outside the US or from the US who have travelled abroad.
c) 9/11 happens. Afghanistan is implicated and specific provinces in Afghanistan specifically are known to have active Al Queada groups. At this time, we know that additional attacks have been threatened and that AQ has trained many people in Afghanistan.
d) Those people in c) either make calls to those people in the US (THAT WE DON'T YET KNOW ARE AFFILIATED WITH AQ) or people in the US (THAT WE DON'T YET KNOW ARE AFFILIATED WITH AQ) to those areas of Afghanistan that harbor and/or are controlled by Al Queada
e) The NSA has started monitoring phone calls out of, and into those areas of Afghanistan
f) Because of the NSA monitoring, the origins and destinations of calls into and out of those areas of Afghanistan are identified.
g) The NSA has now identified those persons in the US communicating with those areas of Afghanistan known to be controlled by Al Quaeda.
h) g) is certainly sufficient condition now to start checking into those people in the US communicating with those persons in Afghanistan
i) NOW, we have an idea that those folks are potentially dangerous
In other words, the monitoring of phone calls into and out of areas of the world known to be hostile to US interests, WE HAVE IDENTIFIED PEOPLE POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS TO THE US!

Reading the above, it appears more that your viewpoint is what is driving you. The above sentence is so patently absurd, that anyone with an ounce of reasoning ability would see it for the silliness that it is. Your statement indicates that you actually believe people are just chomping at the bit to use any excuse to start wiretapping people.
... snip of remainder of absolute illogic starting from fundamentally flawed premise.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Do you think a terrorist phone call is going to last as long as it takes to get a warrant?
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Well given that if it's of such short duration as that, unless those listening in were already doing so, what's your point?
According to the President's mouthpiece they're monitoring only those phone calls that are coming in, and yet they claim that had this program been in effect they could have theoretically caught some of the 9/11 terrorists who were allegedly making calls OUT...
What's not being said is that the listener's can easily conduct their phone taps and apply for a warrant after, that provision was specifically included in the FISA rules.
It still begs the question of how the NSA knows who to listen to, if they already have suspects in question, why not apply for the FISA warrants? If they were conducting a fishing expedition as they almost certainly were, that would explain their lack of even trying to obtain the legal warrants required.
When the first evidence that the NSA or some other spy agency was also collecting intel on one or more of the President's opponents, and it almost certainly will, the shit will start to roll down hill and Mr. Gonzales and Mr. McCullough won't be able to do a damned thing about it.
After the midterm elections, if the Democrats can get their shit together well enough to retake the House of Reps, start looking for the mass resignations from in and around the White House. Any attorney worth their salt will be able to name their rates when the impeachment hearings start...
John E.

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Whoa! You've really tripped them up now.

You assume that the FISA rules are the extent of the authority of the executive branch. This hasn't been decided, contrary to the shrieking of the Dems.

You should play the lottery with this clairvoyant ability.

Keep dreaming. I heard James Carville today ripping the Dems because they can't pick a topic and stay on it long enough to make a cohesive thought. I thought perhaps I had low blood sugar when James Carville starts to make sense. The best reason to believe that this whole "domestic spying" thing is going nowhere is because the Dems believe it is going somewhere. So far, they're batting 0.000 for the past six years.
todd
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John Emmons wrote:

Overseas calls have long been open season for NSA spooks. Presumably automated recordings of calls to peculiar destinations would be fairly mundane to eggheads like that.
I don't think the claims being made are against that activity, that's just what dubya chose as his talking point.
er
--
email not valid

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Don wrote:

Tis true, and ignorant means easy to control. The US scans e-mails and news groups for trigger words, not difficult to use computers to scan for spoken key words either. IIRC Menwith Hill runs Echelon and active intercept scanning (NSA's biggest operational unit) which reports on all sorts of things. Add to that the Google operation, used by police to monitor certain activity, and the picture gets even clearer. As one police officer put it to me recently "we're not the thought police", all that was missing was the "yet"....
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Don wrote:

It's an interesting notion... there are a lot of ignorant people walking around... but we're never one of them. Sort of a variation of NIMBY. Human nature is a funny thing.
Joe Barta
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Leon wrote:

Read my post again. Do the words "after the fact" have any meaning to you?
--
It's turtles, all the way down

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The results are the same.
If a guy plows into you at a stop sign and said his brakes failed, would it change the out come if he later has his brakes repaired?
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You as dumb as that makes you sound?
Get back to civics class. That's the whole point of the exercise - "justice" for the criminal must come _after_ the crime. Criminal gets to play fast, loose and dangerous, those who would catch him slow, within narrow legal strictures, and with concern for public safety and "rights."
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There is a legitimate debate to be had regarding whether the FISA law abrogates some of the President's legitimate constitutional authority to protect the US against enemies foreign and domestic and to act as commander in Chief, gathering data for the defense of the US. Certainly during the golden years of the Clinton administration, the administration, through Jamie Gurrelik made that arguement when the even more insidious communications satellite program was revealed.
It is certainly questionable that monitoring phone calls from known rogue states with ties to terrorist groups to persons in the US would qualify as nullifying US citizens' civil rights. Particularly when one examines the time frame during which this surveillance occurred. [Hint, it was about the same time that a certain female senator was accusingthe administration of not connecting the dots and ignoring the danger prior to 9/11, screeching out the demand, "What did George Bush know, and when did he know it?") Seems like the administration is screwed regardless of what it does in certain peoples' minds.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:39:03 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:

Also note that Clinton's administration had Aldritch Ames' house searched and him jailed without warrant. This sort of thing certainly isn't unique to the Bush administration. Now, why *didn't* Clinton get a warrant to search and sieze Ames' property? Hmm? The answer is pretty obvious; It's not needed in such circumstances, though failure to do so may restrict criminal prosecutions based on what's found. Also note that the "Fourth" has the word "reasonable" in there.
--
Keith



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My neighbors Mark and Juanita wrote:>Seems like the administration is screwed regardless of >what it does

True. With good reason, too. Tom
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Don (in U2VEf.12104$ snipped-for-privacy@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net) said:
| Show me the part where a standing army is to exist? | Whats that? | Its not in there? | Shut the fuck up them. | Jeezis, where do all these morons come from?
Point your browser at http://www.iedu.com/mrd/Constitution.html and read Section 8 of Article I:
"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;"
and further down in that same section:
"To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;"
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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Don (in WjXEf.12148$ snipped-for-privacy@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net) said:
| || said: || ||| Show me the part where a standing army is to exist? ||| Whats that? ||| Its not in there? ||| Shut the fuck up them. ||| Jeezis, where do all these morons come from? || || Point your browser at http://www.iedu.com/mrd/Constitution.html and || read Section 8 of Article I: || || "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, || Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common || Defence and general Welfare of the United States;" || || and further down in that same section: || || "To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that || Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; || || To provide and maintain a Navy; || || To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and || naval Forces; || || To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the || Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; || || To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, || and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the || Service of the United States, reserving to the States || respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority || of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by || Congress;" | | I'm still waiting.
Sorry, I can't read it out loud for you from here. You'll just have to find someone closer or remain ignorant.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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Here Morris, take my hand, we're both getting muddy. Time to climb out of this wallow.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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Mark & Juanita wrote:

And another rare occurrence where we all agree :-).
--
It's turtles, all the way down

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Don't know, where are you from?
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