OT - Basic Skills in Today's World

Page 4 of 13  

pipedope wrote:

You tell us...

You have a problem with trees being replanted for future cuts?
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On 9 Aug 2006 18:36:24 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

If he gets to define the terms any way he likes, he can prove anything -- anything at all.
Forests are forests, regardless of whether they are tree farms or "virgin" forests.
-- Robert Sturgeon Summum ius summa inuria. http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge /
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Robert Sturgeon wrote:

And a car is a car, regardless of whether it's a Yugo or a Rolls.
--
It's turtles, all the way down

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Robert Sturgeon wrote:

Looks like the pot calling the kettle black.
Start with how bad I am for simply asking a question by implying that I am defining terms to fit my argument and the you make a strange definition to support your own argument.
There are major differences between virgin forests and tree farms. Not even all virgin forests are the same.
There is lots of good science on the subject, far more than will fit into net news sound bites.
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pipedope wrote:

You know and I know that pots can't talk.

Indeed. Pots and kettles talking to each other...

So cutting trees is bad, and cutting trees expressly grown to be cut is bad, too.
It's always that way with the libs. I saw a lib movie where they sat around a stump and wailed and cried...
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

I never said anything like that at all. I am pointing out that when comparing things it is important to define the terms and understand the time frame of the comparison.
There is such a thing as sustainable forestry and logging but in the USA today it is really only being done by owners of small woodlots.
The reason clear cutting is popular is that it is cheap and can be done with much less skilled labor. Selectively harvesting only the mature trees and removing them with minimal damage to the rest of the forest requires more labor and people with more education and experience. Yes, that also would mean that I would pay more for my lumber but I already pay top dollar for quality lumber so it really wouldn't change things for me so much.
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pipedope wrote:

Then it's a good that we're talking this through. You sure left me with that impression.

And we will find that most things aren't comparable.

Hmmmm? Mead/Westvaco and Weyerhauser would wince at your suggestion.

It is popular because the large timber companies wish to replant a single desireable species that can be harvested again in a shorter period of time.

"The rest of the forest" may not contain desireable trees.

You are only considering ONE aspect of the situation and then put a negative spin on it, such as the timber work force being comprised of stupid people.

Don't be so sure.
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Robert Sturgeon wrote:

(source?)
Since 1900 perhaps, but not compared to the pinnacle of replanting efforts several decades ago. We cut down trees to build more homes each day. There's no physical way a population can be kept growing without using more timber unless steel framework supplants most of it. The forest industry puts out smooth propaganda, but renewability is being lost to population growth in most places. They plant tree farms at higher density and try to call it "more acreage."
http://mvh.sr.unh.edu/mvhinvestigations/old_growth_forests.htm (compare 1926 to 1990)
R. Lander
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And also, what kind of acreage is it? Old growth trees of hundreds of years ago, certainly don't measure up to what is grown today. Same acreage maybe, but certainly not same quality, durability or foliage.
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Upscale wrote:

Very true. Here's one of many maps showing the general plight of old growth:
http://mvh.sr.unh.edu/mvhinvestigations/old_growth_forests.htm
Many on the Right don't believe Man can impact nature unless it was decreed in the Bible. They will always claim that down means up when a resource is discussed; or price matters more than physical abundance. They'll spotlight some guy planting a dozen trees in his backyard, while a nearby subdivision flattens the last wild oaks in the county. Of course, a few oaks will be left standing so they can give it a trite name.
R. Lander
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Steve Taylor wrote:

Are you talking about a few plots here and there? Communism was as bad or worse for nature than unfettered capitalism. Where are you getting your information?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1586889.stm
"Russian experts who have spent five years mapping the forests say much of what is left is in jeopardy.....researchers say what little is left of the forests is at risk, as the parts likeliest to attract exploitation have no protection under federal or local law."
R. Lander
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R. Lander wrote:

Of course not. Don't be so silly.
If not a welfare recipient, then a welfare advocate.

Mmmm I don't know. Winston seemed to want to argue it.

We do? Gosh, I guess I didn't need to put 160,000 miles on a Geo Metro when I could have enjoyed driving Blazer? My home is 1600 sqft instead of 2000 to 2200 that seems to be the "starter" home of today.

Yep, all those conservative hispanic, moslem, hindu, and chinese "wingers" keep growing the population. No go back and do your homework before you say something else as stupid.
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On 5 Aug 2006 07:27:58 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"

By and large, no. The post-modern economy is primarily concerned with symbol manipulation -- not the creation of real goods. There is very little call for the ability to do icky stuff like using tools. What is needed in today's world is the ability to manipulate symbols (known also as the Symbolic Economy -- spreadsheets, databases, web pages, data entry, reading and writing reports, politicking, entertainment, lawyering, etc.).
A serious question, but one most of us don't like to think about, is -- what skills might be needed in a post-post-modern (a.k.a. post-SHTF) economy? And could we meet such needs, if necessary? Probably not, which leads us to the possibility of Tim May's "massive die-off," which people like Jared Diamond assure us is possible when any society/economy collapses. It is probably true that the more symbolic, abstract, and detached from the production of real goods a society/economy becomes, the more likely it is to suffer a catastrophic collapse.
Fun, huh???
-- Robert Sturgeon Summum ius summa inuria. http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge /
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I think you have a good point Robert.
In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the more "fragile" it becomes.
TMT
Robert Sturgeon wrote:

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It came evident when the basic mom wanted a rocket scientist or Doctor / Lawyer as a son/daughter. The schools were being and are still being hammered on numbers - those that go to college are value, those that get trade jobs are nothing - just like dropouts. So money and care to trade classes went to lit and social classes - every one needed to read.... Power base shift from life to socialism. As some of these children moved into higher education and into jobs - they found being able to think, sit, walk, work, learn-on-the-fly and under pressure - was getting harder - it was done for themselves.
Those with skills continued to thrive as they fed both business and now a larger base of need.
My wife has a tool box. I keep it stocked the tools and such that we need for the house - and bought her a nice Dewalt screwdriver - that she drills and screws into the house at will. I introduced the 60 and 100# wallboard hanger - so now she is doing her thing and using me as needed. Now I have a willing and trained - yes I helped her do it at first - when I need help.
My object in this was simple. A friend of mine lost his dad. The mother didn't know how to pay bills, ........fix anything... and lost most of here money in a money shuffle stock manager...
I decided to get my wife geared in such a way she could run the house and her life as needed. I was flying all over the world and working 10 miles from a 'firing range' or cease fire line as it is really called. Flying into 5 countries in two days and driving in foreign countries trying to save some company or someones job. I almost didn't come back on one trip and another it was an emergency recall from France to Switzerland to L.A. (non-stop) to San Jose - with 2 hours between planes in Switzerland. Swiss Air did a wonderful thing by routing me on a special plane they had going.
Martin
Martin H. Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member http://lufkinced.com /
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

-
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I think you have a good point Robert.
In my opinion the more technologically advanced a society is, the more "fragile" it becomes.
TMT
Robert Sturgeon wrote:

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On 5 Aug 2006 09:30:43 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"

A miracle! We agree on something. Great.
-- Robert Sturgeon Summum ius summa inuria. http://www.vistech.net/users/rsturge /
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wrote:

I think the reverse is true. Technological advancement gives a society options, redundancies, flexibility and the ability to assess and remediate problems.
Jeff
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And if the electricity goes out for six months or even six weeks?
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"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message

Swelter in the apartment without air conditioning. Start suffering from dehydration because the water pumps to the roof water towers have shut off, suffer a heart attack going down 17 flights of stars because the elevators aren't working, break a leg in the taxi cab after the accident because all the stop lights are out, die in the hospital parking lot from a stroke because the emergency is packed and the intern working on you in the taxicab back seat can't properly work a manual blood pressure gauge.
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