OT bad experience today

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Mark Hopkins wrote:

Not exactly. It's more like saying anyone who has a high-powered shaper and misuses it is a poor woodworker.
I've never owned a pit bull, but I have several friends who have them and I've spent a lot of time around them. I have found them to be loving, affectionate, even-tempered and easy to handle. What's more, any sign of aggressiveness towards humans was systematically bred out of them. They are outstanding dogs.
But they are outstanding dogs in exactly the same way a powerful shaper is an outstanding tool. If you do not know what you're doing, the consequences of having one can be pretty horrendous.
Pit bulls are extremely strong and very, very quick dogs. While aggression towards humans was bred out, they have the normal terrier aggressiveness toward other animals their size or smaller. They need to be carefully socialized to both humans and animals. Further, they require owners who understand them, will work with them, discipline them wisely and above all keep them under psychological control.
Having watched several people raise them from puppies, I firmly believe pit bulls, rewarding as they are, are not dogs for novices.
Beyond this, pit bulls have a bad reputation and are discriminated against because of it. Many animal control departments, humane societies, etc., will automatically euthanize any pit bills they acquire. If the dog is running free (which is a strong condemnation of any dog owner) animal control will typically keep it for, say, three days and then put it down.
Pit bull owners are also under legal disabilities. If the dog does bite another animal or a person, there is in effect a strong presumption that the dog is 'vicious' that works against the owner in court. And of course in some places they are classed as 'dangerous breed' by law and require special bonds, enclosures, etc. if they will let people keep them at all.
You can argue that this kind of action against pit bulls is another example of fools confusing the thing with the person behind it. In my opinion you'd be correct.
But the fact remains that anyone who allows a pit bull to run free (or get into a situation where they can get free) is a bad owner and should be sanctioned.
--RC

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Re: OT bad experience today Group: rec.woodworking Date: Sat, Oct 2, 2004, 10:18am (EDT-1) snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com (Swingman) says: <snip> I had my right hand completely bitten through by a pit bull <snip>
I've seen videos of them blowing out tires on vehicles (people taking refuge in them), so the dogs took it out on the tires.
struggling to get my right hand from those jaws <snip>
A lot of days late, and several dollars short, but kicking it in the stomach, or other areas, might have done it. But, getting your hand bitten, and thinking clearly enough to remember something like that, might not go together.
but to me there is no reason a sane individual would own one of these dogs, particularly in an urban environment. They are anti-social assault weapons, and no other animal, child, or human is ultimately safe around one,
That seems to be the reason most people own them.
except for the owner.
Sometimes.
To let one run loose in an urban situation, even accidentally, is akin to assault with a deadly weapon and should be treated as such.
Got to go along with that. I like dogs in general, but tend to draw the line at those little yapping rat dogs, and the ones willing to try to eat me.
Waay back, when I was a kid, I used to read a lot of books on hunting in Africa. I remember one, a hunter remained in camp, and was shaving his head (he didn't like going bald), and was attached by a leopard. He wound up with one fist in the leopard's mouth, and eventully killed it. I don't recall if he strangled it (well, actually I think it was shoving his fist down its throat, which changed its concenration on trying to get away, from killing the guy), or cut its throat, with his straight razor. Supposedly that was the only known case of anyone killing a leopard with his bare-hands. This was in the 20s or 30s, I think. I took a quick look on google, to see if I could come up with it. Instead, came up with this. It doesn't exactly seem true, to me. I can't imagine anyone getten chewed up by a leopard, and wanting someone to film it. THE ARTFUL DODGER The records of accidents with leopards are high. Most of the well-known professional hunters of recent years have all been savaged by leopards, and many of the old-timers, too. Foremost was Charles Cottar, who strangled a live leopard with his bare hands. Whilst doing so, he had one of his sons turn the handle of the movie camera! On seeing his father pouring blood from the deep scratches the leopard was inflicting upon him, his son stopped turning the hand
Came from here. http://www.sycamoreisland.com/biggame2.htm
This name seems familar to me, but in the story I read, the guy was suppoedly in camp alone.
JOAT We will never have great leaders as long as we mistake education for intelligence, ambition for ability, and lack of transgression for integrity. - Unknown
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J T wrote:

Actually no. Most people own them because they are fun dogs and they're so friendly they're almost goofy. There are a few people who want a four-legged assault weapon and train and socialize their dogs accordingly. Like I say, a pit bull's major drive is to please its owner. And there are some people out there who shouldn't be allowed to own a goldfish.
That's the reason I find these fairy tales about pit bulls so infuriating. (And you may have noticed I've gotten a, ah, 'trifle heated' over this.) This nonsense about 'anti-social assault weapons' is so completely at odds with the breed's real personality.
--RC <snip>

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Rick Cook wrote:

When I think "pit bull" I think "Spuds McKenzie". But most people don't realize that Spuds was a pit bull. I find it interesting that Bodget in "The Incredible Journey" was changed from a bull terrier to a bulldog in the 1993 remake. I'm not really a "dog person" myself but I find this hysteria directed at a single breed to be silly. It's all irrational--I see the same thing directed at Rottweilers, which were never fighting dogs--apparently their use as cattle-herding dogs dates back to the early days of the Roman Empire, and later they were used to pull carts and the like, so one cannot claim that they were bred to be vicious. Sure, they can be dangerous--they're immense and well-armed so of course they're dangerous. But even a housecat can kill someone if it wants to badly enough--my mother made the mistake of backing a frightened stray into a corner once and ended up with a severed artery, nerve damage, and something like 75 stitches (came home that night and no parents and blood all over the place--thought the Manson Family had visited). If she hadn't gotten prompt medical attention she would at best have lost a hand and quite possibly bled out. And that poor cat wasn't really trying to do anything but get away.
Speaking of goldfish, I overheard a conversation at a pet store one time--two guys standing there, one extensively bandaged. Owner asks what happened (apparently they're regulars). Seems the guy who was bandaged attempted to pick up the other's electric catfish, which was on the bottom of a tank of piranha, snakeheads, and other fish noted for their rapacity (he was apparently drunk at the time). The piranha, snakeheads, etc attacked their new meal (the guy's arm) with great gusto--fortunately he did succeed in grasping the catfish, as the others let go when the catfish blasted him. Apparently once they got him stabilized and conscious (the catfish seems to have been at full charge) the crew at the emergency room derived much merriment from the manner in which he came to be injured. So it would seem that something as apparently innocuous as a tank of fish can be pretty dangerous if one doesn't treat it with due respect.

--
--John
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"J T" wrote in message

Actually, both my hands and legs were 'otherwise engaged'. :(
In retrospect I probably should have made more of an effort to grab the kid instead of trying to pull the dogs off him, but he was under them and it just happened too fast ... then again, it might have been my arm in those jaws, instead of a hand.
As it is, every time I see two dogs squaring off now, I instinctively put my hands in my pockets. :)
--
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J T wrote:

I was in the military (USMC) and we were trained to respond to attack dogs like this:
1) If a dog is charging you, you will be bitten, so prepare for it. Do not run and do not turn your back to the dog. Force your hand violently into the dog's mouth as he opens it to bite you. Reach as deeply into his throat as possible.
2) The most sensitive and critical component of a dog attack is his feet. Stomp them as many times as possible. A broken foot will terminate most attacks.
3) If you have a free hand, grab a front leg and pull it behind the dog's back as though you were attempting an arm lock. It is easy to dislocate the dog's leg, which will terminate the attack.
Any dog can be dangerous, it's just that there are lots of idiots who consider owning a pit bull(s) to be a reflection of their character and personal discipline. Naturally, since criminals tend to favor the more intimidating breeds, a negative stigma has developed. I don't doubt that the majority of pit bull owners are responsible people, but it certainly seems like there are a lot more stray pits at SPCA than there are Rotts. It might have something to do with the fact that a Rott with good bloodlines can cost two grand ow more. I have a Rat Terrier and two very large Rottweilers. The terrier seems to be the noisiest, rowdiest one of the bunch, even though she only weighs twelve pounds.
just some random thoughts...
-- -linux_lad To verify that this post isn't forged, click here: http://www.spoofproof.org/verify.php?sig 164fc31edff08829e795cae14cfced
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Makes sense. The general principle is sound as well, even though it makes people whine about "you don't have proof he was going to bite you".

Good to know, thanks. At the risk of turning this into more of a debate than it already is, it's interesting to substitute "rogue nation/dictator" for "dangerous dog".
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Well, even the Marines can get it wrong. I delivered papers for more than a half dozen years as a kid, was charged God only knows how many times but never was bitten. Not that that boxer might not have had it in mind but at that time I carrying a cast metal card punch in my hand and I gave him a pretty good shot in the end of the nose/mouth with it. Probably hurt him all most as much as it scared me, danged thing was shoulder high to my hip. Later in life I took to taking a step towards them, leaning in, putting my arms out to the side like a muscle man pose and growling back; damned funny watching a German Shepherd swap ends as it's digging for traction to run the other way.
I do agree though, the only thing you can do worst than turning your back on them is run. That just triggers every predator-prey instinct they have.
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John Keeney wrote:

I am curious as to why a Marine should not instead of putting his hand down the dog's throat instead use the muzzle of his M-16 for that purpose.
--
--John
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I think the Marines would then grab the dog by his balls from the inside?
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Eric Ryder notes:

You may not have the rifle, or there may be too many others around for it to be used. But you grab the lungs from the inside. Grabbing the balls from the inside is too much of a stretch, in every way. :)
Charlie Self "The really frightening thing about middle age is that you know you'll grow out of it." Doris Day
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Probably depends on availability.
If the dog is an unneutered male, grasping his testicles firmly and lifting his hindquarters off the ground would probably be effective, though that particular manouver is easier when the dog is biting someone else.
Keep in mind that muscles which open an animals mouth are quite weak compared to those that close it. It is easy to snap a dog's mouth shut by striking it with an upward blow on the chin. With luck, the dog will bite its own tongue. It is not hard to grasp a dog by the muzzle and hold his mouth shut--until he starts shaking his head. But that can buy you a moment or two to gouge his eyes or kick him in the throat or the underbelly below the ribcage.
If you can't stop the dog from biting then personally, I'd rather give the dog my forearm than my hand because even if he breaks my arm that's probably easier to fix than a mangled hand. Whichever he has hold of, I'd then try to use it to raise his head so that I could kick his throat or the underbelly below the ribcage. If I couldn't raise him enough to get to his throat I'd gouge his eyes with my other hand. Unless I just happened to have a Stanley #8 in my other hand, but that is someone else's story.
As others have pointed out, the best strategy to stave off any attack by facing the dog down with attitude.
--

FF

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snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in

I hafta ask. How do you kick it in the throat while holding its mouth shut?
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Lift it up by the snout. Then let go and kick. Sort of like punting.
--

FF

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snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in

I suppose that might work for something around the size of a football. But, dogs that size tend to be ankle biters and footballs usually cooperate.
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No need to pick up a foo foo dog. You can just kick him like he was on a tee. ;-)
I've _gently_ held big dogs mouths shut when playing or scolding but never on a dog intent on doing me harm. The only times I've been bitten were when I reached out to pet dogs who hadn't warned me or by accident when breaking up dog fights (I don't advise other people to do that.) None of these bites were serious. If you aren't gentle when you grab a dog by the snout you can hurt him so be careful if you want to practice on your dog.
My experience with playing with the big dogs in the tall grass leads me to believe that if you have one by the snout you can lift the front legs off the ground and then kick low or let go and kick high I freely admit I haven't tried it, but it sounds better to me than the Tues manouver.
--

FF

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J. Clarke wrote:

The technique is taught as a self defense mechanism. An example of circumstances where military personnel might be without a weapon would be escape from a pow facility, or from a downed aircraft.
-- -linux_lad To verify that this post isn't forged, click here: http://www.spoofproof.org/verify.php?sig8bf6277d12b5b481d7abcd93543ecc7
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-linux_lad wrote:

That makes sense. One of the few things on this thread that does.

--
--John
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John Keeney:

As goofy as it sounds, this will usually work with untrained, healthy dogs. Most grown men are at least twice as large an adult male dog and in the animal world, size and confidence are great deterrents. I have also been attacked twice by dogs that were not deterred by my confidence and those I punched or kicked in the throat as hard as possible; in both cases, the attack ended immediately. I don't imagine trained animals would have given up so quickly. Jamming your hand into their throat would probably work if you keep it there long enough to suffocate them.
--
Mac Cool

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Maybe so, but I wouldn't recommend trying it as a first thought. Dogs don't open their mouths far enough to get your hand shoved in there. Watch a barking dog - their mouth is not open very wide. Now look at an even more dangerous dog - the one that is giving you those warning growls - his mouth is not open at all. I'm not going to shove my hand past those teeth when I'll have to break them off in order to get in there.
--

-Mike-
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