OT bad experience today

[Rick Cook]

You certainly got that right! Owning a large dog carries with it special responsibilities.

--RC

[Rick Cook]

Pit bulls (AKA American Bull Terriers) were bred from medium size terriers with a large admixture of bulldogs of various sorts, plus anything else that looked like it would be an advantage for dog fighting -- or so the commonly accepted story goes. According to that version, they were gradually developed after bull baiting became impractical/outlawed in urban areas in the United States and was replaced by the 'sport' of dog fighting.

Pit bulls were bred for strength, speed and 'gameness' -- the unwillingness to quit -- as well as to be handleable since the owners had to separate them repeatedly in the fighting pit. They were specifically not bred for aggression or 'viciousness', although aggression was trained into the fighting dogs later. As a breed their outstanding mental traits seem to be a willingness to do anything to please their owners and the unwillingness to quit.

Actually pit bulls have been around for at least 150 years, as best we can judge. They show up commonly in art from around the turn of the 20th century and were widely used as mascots and symbols of American fighting forces about the time of World War II and were also common in early movies. "Petey", the Little Rascals dog, was a pit bull.

All that said, there is a lot of confusion about 'what is a pit bull'. At one extreme you have people who call any medium or large, short-muzzled dog that bites a 'pit bull'. (I have seen the term applied to a Bedlington Terrier in a TV news story!) There are also people who lump a number of distinct breeds, such as ABTs (true 'pit bulls'), English Bull Terriers, English Staffordshire Terriers, and several others as 'pit bulls'. At the other you have the people who apply the term only to ABTs used for fighting.

General use is to apply the term 'pit bull' only to American Bull Terriers, which are recognized as a breed by some kennel clubs (but not the AKC). You can go on their web sites and find breed descriptions.

Those are good questions, btw. They held define what it is we're talking about here.

--RC

[Rick Cook]

You're not gonna like this, but. . .

The reason the dog displayed unacceptable levels of aggression is that it wasn't properly trained. Just being around people (socialization) is important, but it is not enough for any dog. You have to train them in what you want them to do.

This is especially important with a large, strong dog. You _have_ to train them or you're going to have trouble.

For example, charging the door at a stimulus outside is a very common dog behavior. Everything from Yorkies on up does it and I have a friend who ended up with a huge vet bill because his Irish Setter charged through a glass storm door. However when a Yorkie does it you may not notice. When a pit bull does it, the dog is likely to break the door.

The incident with the steer doesn't surprise me either. When a dog like a pit bull attacks it can do a lot of damage and pit bulls do not quit.

But the real point is that you simply did not have control over your dog because you had not trained it properly. You can see equivalent behavior from just about any breed of dog in the local park on the weekend. And in all cases the cause is the same.

As I say, pit bulls are not for everyone and they most certainly need to be both trained and socialized. If you don't do both, you're going to have trouble.

--RC

"D. J. Dorn" wrote:

[Rick Cook]

That statement is technically correct, but you have to look at things from the dog's perspective. A dog, any dog, may be moved to attack by things that seem utterly innocuous to humans. The resulting aggression may seem utterly unprovoked to humans unless they speak dog pretty fluently. Simply looking at a dog, or walking close to it may appear to the dog to be an attack under the proper circumstances. (This is why it is dangerous to approach any dog that's running loose, btw. The dog is most likely out of its comfort zone and prone to nervous aggression. This can be true of even the most docile, well-behaved dogs.)

Here is a good discussion of aggression in dogs, what causes it and how to prevent it.

I favor Collies and Irish Setters, and I've never, ever

In an earlier post I mentioned the Irish Setter who charged through a storm door. The reference above mentions collies as a breed that can bite.

The next time you go to your vet, ask him or her about what breeds of dogs are most likely to bite. The answer is 'all of them'.

Happens fairly frequently. In fact St. Bernards figure on the list of breeds involved in dog bite fatalities. It's true that terriers of all sizes and breeds have a tendency to aggression, but the difference is not nearly as great as you make it out to be.

Can you say 'media artifact'? If the dog even looks vague like a pit bull, it will be described in the media as a 'pit bull' or a 'pit bull mix'. Otherwise the breed of dog is quite likely to go unreported.

--RC

[Rick Cook]

Better neither. That's why you train your dog. The kid you save may be your own. (According to the statistics family members are more likely to be harmed by dogs than outsiders. The statistics also show that children are more likely to be attacked than adults and in children most of the bites are to the face.)

--RC

[Rick Cook]

Or the dog goes for your face and severs an artery. Can happen in an instant, even with something as small as a Yorkie. Especially with a small child.

--RC

[Rick Cook]

True in a lot of places. Arizona is an interesting state because it consists of urban islands isolated by miles and miles of desert, rangeland, etc. In the urbanized areas you call animal control when you encounter a dog running loose. In the un-urbanized, mostly uninhabited areas, the rule is more direct. Free roaming dogs are likely to be shot on sight.

In neither case are dogs running loose tolerated. Nor should they be.

--RC

[Charles Spitzer]

not really, otherwise we'd likely have no coyotes left.

charlie cave creek, az

[Rick Cook]

Actually the studies prove exactly the opposite. The number of dog bite incidents correlates (as best we can determine) with the relatively popularity of the breeds. The more popular the breed in a particular area, the more likely they are to bite someone. There's no correlation with 'aggressive' breeds.

Note that this was exactly the question before the Alabama supreme court in the only (AFIK) 'dangerous breeds' case to go up on appeal. After studying the evidence the court came to the conclusion that there is no proof that any breeds are inherently dangerous.

Dog bite fatalities show a different picture. There's a direct correlation between the size and strength of the breed and its involvement in fatalities. That's why pit bulls, rottweilers and such figure high on that list. But St. Bernards and most other large breeds of dogs are high on the list as well.

Except the statistics don't support the idea of 'aggressive breeds' in that sense.

There was a time when German Shepherds were one of the most popular breeds in the US. More German Shepherds, more bites by German Shepherds. That simple.

My acquaintances with Pyrs are only casual (and favorable), but I would be willing to bet that with proper training you could take a full male to the dog park with no worry that he would attack another dog. What you can't be sure of -- for any breed -- is whether any of the other dogs there would attack the Pyr.

Most responsible sources will tell you never to talk _any_ medium to large size breed off a leash.

I'm told this is common at dog shows with all kinds of breeds.

That's certainly true. As I say, a pit bull can do a lot of damage.

No. Killers don't win dog fights. Dogs with game, stamina, strength, endurance and speed win dog fights. A dog that just wants to kill is at a disadvantage. And a dog that shows aggression towards humans in the middle of a dog fight is a liability -- and not going to survive.

They're not. But you're exaggerating the 'unique behavioral instincts' of the various breeds of dogs. Look, dogs were dogs for tens of thousands of years before modern breeds appeared on the scene. In all those tens of thousands of years they were bred for socialization with humans and other traits. Those are still predominant.

I've said repeatedly that pit bulls are not dogs for everyone.

I'm not upset at people being wary of pit bulls or any other kind of dog. I am upset by the kind of hysterical nonsense that all too often passes for fact when they're discussed.

All pit bull fanciers can do is try to educate people about the actual nature of their dogs by countering the sort of absurdities that some people put out as 'fact'. Pit bulls are not for everyone, but they are not the 'four-legged assault weapons' the ignorant and fearful try to make them out to be.

--RC

[Rick Cook]

But dog deaths are related to size and strength, not to number of attacks.

--RC

[Rick Cook]

Well, there is this difference. This argument is essentially analogous to whether or not that 400 horsepower vehicle will really do 300km/h.

If the 'car' in question is a semi-tractor designed to haul trailer loads of freight, then the 300km/h claim is obvious nonsense. But if you're dealing with people who can't see beyond the horsepower rating and are absolutely, totally, unshakably convinced that the vehicle _must_ be capable of 300 km/m because it has 400 horsepower, well. . .

--RC

[Leon]

I think a Boxer/Rottweiler mix would produce a dog roughly 3 times larger than a Pitt Bull. I put them on the large end of the small sized dog group or small end of the medium sized dog group. I have a small female Chocolate Lab that is larger than the typical Pitt Bull.

[Rick Cook]

My friend, you underestimate the coyote! First, you're unlikely to see them. Second, they are very prolific animals.

In days gone by people not only shot coyotes on sight, they killed the litters in the dens, lured them into range with varmint calls (and 'range' was likely to be 200 yards or more!), poisoned them, trapped them and hunted them.

Killed a lot of coyotes, but the coyotes kept bouncing back.

They're not my favorite animals, but it's hard not admire them in a sneaky sort of way.

(And did I mention they are a major killer of free-roaming dogs?)

--RC

[Leon]

Um are you saying that the dog had to be "Properly" trained to not attack and kill? Seems to be contrary to what you have been indicating about Pitt Bulls.

Some maybe but not all. Take the Great Dane for instance, a fantastac indoor dog and superior around kids. Or a Lab, again naturally great around kids.

[Doug Winterburn]

Like the one that shadowed my wife and me for four holes on the golf course! He made no attempt at not being seen and hung around at 25 to 50 yards. I don't see them regularly, but it's not uncommon to see them either - many times as road kill.

-Doug

[Charles Spitzer]

i see them daily in my back yard and neighborhood, as close as about 20' from my patio. they also visit in packs at night, and howl at all hours of the evening and night. they, along with the 3 eagles living in my neighbor's trees, help keep the rabbit population down. currently, there is not a great amount of shooting of coyotes, at least the 4 footed variety.

[Charles Spitzer]

there are bozos in my neighborhood that carry dry dog food to feed them whilst out on their daily walks. that's why they're learning to follow people. it is very spooky when they do so.

[Larry Blanchard]

Thanks Rick. But I'm familiar with those breeds. And you're right, they're often called pit bulls.

But the pit bull photos I see in Spokane show a larger dog. They don't have the sloped nose of the bull terrier and they're bigger than the Staffordshires. Oh well, probably just another case of mistaken naming. I think the ones I'm talking about are crossbreeds.

[Larry Blanchard]

You "conservatives" are really reaching since even President Bush has admitted that there were no stockpiles. If he can admit that, why can't you?

I suppose you're one of those who also think Saddam was responsible for

9/11.

I've given up arguing the facts. The signature will stay till after the election.

Oh yes, thanks for the pit bull reference. As I responded to Rick, I'm familiar with most of those breeds. But the "game bred" dogs shown on the site are close to what's called a pit bull around here. Add a little height and weight and shorten the muzzle and that's it.

[Buddy Matlosz]

Hey, let's leave Bay Area Dave out of this!

B.