OT: At least there was one

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On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:30:46 -0400, Renata wrote:

Hardly unprecedented - Clinton and Gore also testified to the 9-11 comission in private and not under oath. I suppose you could say they also "refused" to testify under oath, but since none of them were asked to, you'd be wrong.
<http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/29/bush.911.commission/
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calmly ranted:

Most likely. Read this in your spare time. Excellent! http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/silveira77.html
I was very surprised to see 25-30 Army (According to a guard, the National Guard is now Army) soldiers guarding the little air show at Grants Pass Airport last month, but what really got to me was the fact that one of these guys was talking with 2 other guards as they walked by the privvy I was in and they were talking about how fun it would be to turn one over instead of walking guard duty. This is the mentality of those who guard our country?

Agreed. Perhaps lying to the country and Congress should be impeachable, too. Where ARE those Iraqui WMDs? Several thousand searchers (not counting the official weapons inspectors) for two years didn't turn anything up, but gee, one turning up just a few months before the ballot box sure was convenient, wasn't it?
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Yup.Let's hope they don't catch Osama before November, too... Right Larry?
And heaven forbid the foreign terrorists in Iraq are beaten out of the country before then... Just another election stunt.
And if they actually take Falluja and kill or capture Abu Musab al-Zarqaw... They were just waiting for the right poll numbers.
And I suppose if the Islamofascists manage another attack on US soil, well... Bush will have staged that, too. Or will it be Bush's fault and everyone will know that if Gore had rightfully become president it never would have happened?
You guys crack me up... ANY success between now and the election is going to be savaged by the LL as a stunt. Yup, America should just roll back inside its borders and cower, while taking a stern position on Israel, apppeasing the cesspool of corruption that's the UN, and recognizing that it's to blame for the rabid Islamic fascism trying to take over the world.
Just elect Kerry and he'll fix things, or he won't but will have voted for it before he voted against it, or something...
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Appears you've never stood guard duty. Don't worry, even with that mentality they'll still take a hit for you.
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Larry Jaques wrote:

Larry, I bet your ass is so tight you can't squeak out a fart.
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I guess you never make jokes, huh Larry? And, I guess you were never a kid either? These soldiers will defend to the death your right to your opinion, though.
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On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:18:23 -0500, Casey Stamper

I am not enlisted OR on duty AND in uniform, sir.
The public could easily hear his joke for 30 feet in any direction, and I would bet top dollar that if his CO had heard him make the remark, he'd have been put in the brig for a few days so he could think about how his remark weakens the public morale over their defenders.
Sure, I make jokes and was a kid, but when I was working and the joke was against the company or its clients, I kept it low in volume, real low-key. That idiot should have done the same.
While I fully support our troops, I do NOT condone assinine actions either in the states or overseas, especially when it affects world opinion of our great nation. Additionally, Casey, as a US citizen, it's my DUTY to keep watch over the politicians and our military.
I stand by my outrage at the guard's actions.
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Larry Jaques remarks:

Fair enough. Most of us aren't.

You can bet all the dollars you want, but it's very difficult for the Navy or Marines to turn someone into a brig rat, probably impossible on the strength of a callow joke. Freedom of speech in the military is not as strong as in civilian life, but it has some power. Too, the ANG would have one helluva time putting anyone in the brig. That belongs to the Navy and Marines. The Army uses "stockade" as a synonym.

I'm inclined to doubt a smart-assed remark by one trooper in the States, no matter how asinine, is going to do much to change world opinion of the U.S. If it does, piss on the world, IMO.
It is not your duty to keep watch over the military. I suggest you do not do so out loud around some of these guys, especially ones who have recently been in combat.
Yes, the joke was in bad taste. But who on earth ever told you that military personnel were tasteful types. God knows, I wasn't back in the day. And I still am not, and grateful for it.
You will find, too, another level of behavior and attitude in general when these youngsters get overseas. Having stood my share of firewatch, and other watches, on ship and land, I fully understand the temptation to tip over the shithouse after a few hours of back and forth boredom.
Charlie Self "I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'" Garrison Keillor
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On 25 Jul 2004 14:20:39 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) calmly ranted:

So sue me for breach of

One MORE unprofessional stunt by any US citizen/military personnel/CIA/hired corporate soldier/+ in today's climate is not a good thing. It's a salt-in-the-wound kind of thing, Charlie, and I just wish that his CO had heard it.

Perhaps not _directly_, but...

Grok that. <g>
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On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 08:39:51 -0700, Larry Jaques

"Semantics" is the word I spaced there. I couldn't get beyond the word "syntax".
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Larry Jaques wrote:

No kidding.

Oh Larry, your being such a little Girl.
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wrote

What's your point?

I doubt it.

I wonder if you would think he was an idiot if he wasn't in uniform.

The military? Not really. It's the job of the NCO/senior enlisted corps to keep watch over and take care of the individual soldier.

It's your right to do so - I think you are overreacting.

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On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:18:51 -0500, Casey Stamper

If he was in civies it would have been a bad joke. With him in uniform, on duty, and carrying arms, it becomes an extremely unprofessional remark stated in public and subject to scrutiny. If this is how they act here, how must they be in foreign countries where they think they can get away with crap like that. If this is typical action/acceptance by "the new Army", we're in trouble.

Overreacting would have been to go to his CO and report his remark and demand his apology/arrest, etc.
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Larry Jaques responds:

First, ANG is close to Army, but not quite. Second, most of those youngsters do behave quite differently overseas than they do here, especially when in hazardous situations. They usually behave very well.

Unprofessional remarks from someone making 1200 bucks a month and you want to crucify the guy?
You're not overreacting, you're blowing your gaskets to no good purpose. And the odds are his CO would have snickered when you left, turned the situation over the first sergeant, who might have talked to the guy, but probably wouldn't. He did nothing illegal, whether you like it or not.
Charlie Self "I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'" Garrison Keillor
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On 27 Jul 2004 07:59:45 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) calmly ranted:

According to another guard I was talking with (a friendlier one) they report to the Army bases now. Evidently they're closer now than they were pre-9/11.

So you think I shouldn't get angry with anyone making less than $50k/yr, eh? Really now, Charlie. ;) And I'm not crucifying the little sh*t. I made the comment that I was angry and saddened by his actions. (If I'd wanted to crucify him, I'd have gotten his name and told a TV crew, perhaps after his CO snickered at me. But none of that happened.)

If a bigwig was in the can and heard that, they could have pressed for "unprofessional conduct", though that is worse for officers (conduct unbecoming).
Excuse me for thinking that our military (all forms of it) should be on good behavior AT LEAST during their duty hours.
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(Charlie Self)

Why does his behavior upset you so much? People are people and soldiers aren't exempt from questionable conduct. If he was a security guard, would his actions have upset you as much? I must admit that I just don't understand your vehement reaction to an offhand joke by a soldier. The TV crew wouldn't have given a damn about what he said because it was not worthy of note other than in passing.

On what grounds?

What is so bad about the behavior? The soldier might have made an error in judgement by making his comment so that it was audible to more people than just his companion(s), but regardless, this is a non-issue.
You have no idea what he has gone through or what his future holds and I, for one, get sick and tired of people holding soldiers up to a standard that they wouldn't think of adhering to themselves.
Being a soldier (sailor, marine, airman) is one of the toughest jobs that a young man or woman can have and this particular career currently carries enough stress w/out petty complaints coming from the peanut gallery.
If it bothered you so much, why /didn't/ you complain to the 1SG or the Commander instead of whining about it to this newsgroup?

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On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 20:12:33 -0500, Casey Stamper

When you're in the particular porta-potty they're talking about toppling, you have a very different perspective about what's humorous, knowwhatImean,Vern?

You guys are giving this topic a lot more air time than it would have received from me, so how does it feel to be a part of the media circus?

So you think that soldiers, cops, security people should all make really bad, threatening jokes in front of people, further diminishing the respect they get from everyone? Buy a Clue!

Being a civilian surrounded by armed guards making offhand comments like that isn't exactly stressless, old chap. The kid was bored stiff and wanted to do something destructive as an outlet. The object of his frustration just happened to be occupied by yours truly at that precise moment, too. I wasn't the slightest bit uncomfortable around the guards until that comment was made.

I commented. You whined. ;) And had you read my replies, you'd realize that it didn't bother me as much as this thread implies; not even enough to report him at the time. I probably would have forgotten about it if it didn't keep coming up in this thread.
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calmly ranted:

Only if you leave your sense of humor and complete common sense at home.

What a joke Larry. You plop your little tantrum here as if this guy had spread-eagled you in the parking lot with his M16 at your head and then you reply like this to people who tell you that you've made a mountain out of a mole hill? You brought the issue here.

Ohhhhhhhhhh.... really *bad*, *threatening* jokes. Hyperbole does not earn extra points.

Oh stop, for pete's sake. You're whining like a woman. "Armed guards making offhand comments like that isn't exactly stressless"? If you're really all that stressed over a simple joke, then you really need some help. The kid was bored and wanted to do something destructive? My god man, you are paranoid. You need to get out more around people.

No - you brought this here as a whine. An exaggerated whine that you've continued to try to justify with hyperbole. Guess if you didn't want to hear how foolish you sounded by complaining about your little incident, then you should not have plopped it on the floor here.
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On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:41:03 GMT, "Mike Marlow"

(Putting on best teen voice) "What e v e r !"
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What does in uniform, on duty and carrying arms have to do with anything? What makes you think you are empowered to scrutinize them just because they're on duty? Just because you're a citizen does not empower you with that authority. If you don't care for his sense of humor in such a trivial matter, then shake your head and walk away and don't complain in a public forum about it. I find the arbitrary and subjective standards that people like to apply to situations which are no more critical than having offended their delicate sensibilities to be unprofessional and out of order.

We're in more trouble when people with no real complaint resort to making such big deals out of such trivial matters and attempt to cast an importance on their claims with such statements as "with him in uniform, on duty, and carrying arms". Go ahead and be personally insulted if you feel you must, but why in the world would you think this is a big enough and important enough issue to ostrasize this fellow in a public forum?

Closer, but do a little research on the difference between the ANG and Regular Army. Huge difference, no matter how closely they work together. Not that it matters to the point of the rant.

The TV crew would have probably gotten a good laugh at both his joke and your reaction Larry. I mean, for Pete's sake - it was a joke, and not such a horrible one at that. You'd think from your reaction that the fellow had rocked and shaken the porta-john you were in to the point that you feared he would actually tip it over.

"Unprofessional conduct"??? And by what standard are you so certain that either enlisted staff or officers "could" be prosecuted for this simple act? Because you're upset with it and are reaching way out too far in order to try to argue a point?

Your error is in thinking that they must adhere to your definition of good behavior.
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