OT And Apologies to Those Who disagree or May Have Seen it

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Robatoy wrote:

Pus for brains.
Not as scatological as the usual terms, but sufficiently evocative to sound derogatory. Should also fly under the FCC radar.
Bill
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Elrond Hubbard wrote:

Well, damn.
But you know in the past so many have quickly stepped up to bare their souls and carry the flag for their respective camps. Those mentioned above can't be the only standard bearers for all things righteous and true.
I KNOW there is a lot more frustrated anger and hate here in this group than is coming out. Too many here are way to thin skinned to let this kind of thread go away. But so far the only foul language we even have here so far is on an old quote from a thread six weeks or so ago.
I know some of you guys are itching to let it out... you guys know who you are... you can do it... roll out the cannons and start beating the crap out of each other.
C'mon.... do it for the newbies. They may not have seen how this works here. Someone needs to do us all proud, and teach the new guys the ropes of participation.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (in snipped-for-privacy@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com) said:
| I know some of you guys are itching to let it out... you guys know | who you are... you can do it... roll out the cannons and start | beating the crap out of each other. | | C'mon.... do it for the newbies. They may not have seen how this | works here. Someone needs to do us all proud, and teach the new | guys the ropes of participation.
Slow down, nailshooter, or you'll get left behind. Dig out a copy of "Turn, Turn, Turn" and take a listen.
The "time to tear down" is turning into a "time to build up" - with a considerable amount of uncertainty because we aren't quite sure how to go about doing that...
It /is/ the American way, you know, to publicly confess our mistakes in humorous terms. I think it's through laughter that we recover from some of the most grim situations we face in life - as if the laughter helps to restore our sense of balance.
We've had enough polarization - and IMO, it's time to acknowledge that allowing the politicians (of any and all persuasions) to abandon the middle ground was a mistake worth laughing at. It may be the most healthy thing we can do.
The problems we've been given - and the problems we've created - won't be solved this month. It'll take quite a while just to catalog.
And our biggest problem - that of being the last superpower standing - we haven't even begun to deal with.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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Morris Dovey wrote: [snipped for brevity]
Live and learn. Why does it always have to do so much damage?

Superpower on the global economic front? Superpower on the global energy front?
There are some very powerful global chess moves being made by Russia and China while the world is busy watching the crazyness in The Middle east.
Rome used to be a superpower. Now you can't get parts for a Fiat.
r
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Robatoy (in snipped-for-privacy@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com) said:
| Morris Dovey wrote: | [snipped for brevity] | | Live and learn. Why does it always have to do so much damage?
Good question. Perhaps because we're (we being humans) so reluctant to admit to making mistakes; and so don't learn from them - and perhaps because we too often do something that we recognize as a mistake when done by someone else; but expect that the results will be different /this/ time...
|| And our biggest problem - that of being the last superpower || standing - we haven't even begun to deal with. || | Superpower? On what front? Bombs and cruise missles?
Yes. Whether we like it or not, they're real and present - but don't limit yourself to them. The US has produced military technology that allows its armed forces to be deployed more efficiently and effectively (by far) than any other. I'm of the opinion that this, all by itself, is a problem for us.
| Superpower on the global economic front?
Yes, this too (still); and we're all aware that, once again, our greatest strengths can also be our greatest weaknesses.
| Superpower on the global energy front?
Yes, although this is a bit more difficult to see. Our complacency with regard to supply is lamentable; but our history of successes in dealing with energy issues actually /is/ significant. Are there problems to be solved? Of course there are! Will we produce solutions? I believe we are and will continue to do so. (I'm working on several pieces of it myself!)
| There are some very powerful global chess moves being made by Russia | and China while the world is busy watching the crazyness in The | Middle east.
Well yes - the more things change, the more they're the same. IMO, it'd help a lot if fewer people slept through history class. The politicians (everywhere) need to recognize that if one plays "win/lose" long enough, the end result is inevitably one's loss - and that if we only play "win/win" then the end result is inevitably better than a loss. Regrettably, politicians seem to be universally slow learners...
| Rome used to be a superpower. Now you can't get parts for a Fiat.
I hear you - and yet, by strange coincidence, the sweatshirt that I'm wearing this morning has two words on the front: "Carpe Diem" - and I have brand new software for the 'Bot to cut a precision template for a clamping caul - using a 5 HP industrial spindle without measurable runout that was manufactured in Milano - because that was the best I could afford.
As a young lad I visited Italy (traffic was mostly bicycles, Vespas, and Apes then) and was impressed by how much of ancient Rome remained for us to learn from. They got a lot of things right - and they got a lot of things wrong; but I think that, right or wrong, they provided a lot for those of us who came after to consider in the context and perspectives of our own time.
Seize the day!
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 09:45:01 -0600, Morris Dovey wrote:

And one thing I see among my contemporaries is that they don't recognize the parallels between the US and Rome--they see the technological differences and think that they are so overwhelming that the social and political similarities don't matter. Simple fact, Rome spent on the order of a thousand years dealing with recalcitrant and troublesome barbarians, many of them in the Middle East, and some of the descendants of those barbarians were still calling themselve "Roman" a thousand years after the end of the Empire. Maybe there are some lessons to be learned from them.

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Morris Dovey wrote:

Actually, for me it is The Youngbloods, "Let's Get Together".

I agree. But if you laugh at an issue and someone hears you that is on the other side, they no longer see the humor. It's time to get it on.
Rarely is this seen more often than in American politics. And what bewilders me more than any other aspect of that is how vigorous and blindly both sides of the political system (sorry, it boils down to Dems and Reps, like it or not, so no screaming from alternative parties - your time hasn't come) defend their pointless rhetoric. And in this group that defense has gone from simple sticking out of each other's tongues, to snotty and sarcasic commentary, to threats. People use language and tone to bash each other here that they would never use if faced in person with the individual they are burning alive over their diffences. I work in an all male industry... remarks made here from the safety and anonyminity of a monitor and keyboard would result in a loss of teeth... not because of disagreement on issues, but on the completely disrespectful tone used.
To me it is more than profoundly stupid to defend any of the mongrels we have in politics today. Both parties carry the stench of greed, lies, and self serving agendas wherever they go and whatever they do. They don't care about any of us; and it is amazing to me that anyone thinks their respective "representatives" might. How childishly naive can they be? There is no difference in the parties we have at all. Not one bit; anyone that keeps up with the news at all can say that one group is worse or better than the other. Politicians (except of couse, the one you like) dont' care about any of us unless it is time for fundraising, reelection or face time with the press.
And worse, to use our system of news reporting a source of factual data is a bigger joke still. Where do we get out "facts"? What makes your source of facts, the ones used for the frequent acid bath administered here by those that disagree with each other, the "correct source"? The worlds's news system is a joke, manipulated by the owners and editors of that media to sell papers, air time and commercial space. (Still though, my favorite from Homer , " But Marge... I saw it on the internet, that means it has to be true..." or with Homer *sobbing*, "But TV wouldn't lie to me... would it?") But any "fact" that is convenient is pulled out and used as needed when is taken for undisputed truth if it serves the cause of angry dispute.
And even worse still, is the fact that all the ugly political threads here are just running, hateful commentaries populated by playground style one-upsmanship. Both sides carry the arrogant lack of humility that has become requisite to particiapation here. Yet, while these indignant warriors carry their banner highly as long as it is in front of the computer with a cup of coffee or chatting with their like minded friends. I don't know (I could be mistaken) of any that go out and do anything about their highly principled extreme positions. Not even attending a city council meeting.
Sure it lots of fun to belittle each other here, though. You don't know the guys here, you won't run into them at the grocery store, a school function, etc., so you can be the badass you always thought you were. Bury each other with pointless facts, clever rhetoric, and sarcasitic sniping until it gets ugly because someone cuts too deep... then it really starts. Why if you were just there in person, you might even kick some ass!
What got me going here was the fact that a post was made that was clearly marked OT, and had in the subject an apology, invoked a thinly veiled threat. So how thin skinned are we going to get? Are we only allowed to post a silly throw away attempt at humor if the group guardians approve it? I do not agree with some of the things posted here, but how much further does one need to go than to mark it upfront to keep from getting personally attacked for an attempt at humor? I don't agree with the many of the OTs posted here, but thankfully they are marked "OT", and if the content offends me I just don't go back. I don't feel any need to control this group.
The deviseness of which you speak is no more apparent anywhere than it is here. My personal posts were to help the normal process of hysterical screaming and hate mongering along to an immediate crescendo and thusly (hopefully) a quicker end. In a not to subtle manner, I was really trying to encourage (or in a perfect world, discourage) another long, nasty thread. Along the way I was hoping that some of the more vitriolic of this group would get the hint. So little time is spent on woodworking here compared to any subject that deals in any negative aspect.
So Morris, I'm OK. I agree with you. I am sick of all the fighting. I'm right there with you on "Turn, Turn, Turn". But sir, we are few and far between. The art of gentle disagreement is lost. The respect for another's opinion has been replaced by "I'm right, and since you dont' agree with me, screw you". No political party will make a change, it has to come from the people; but that should be for another topic.
I am about as far right conservative on some issues as one can get, and pretty damn far left on others. Most of my friends are the same way. We respect each other's opinons and we like to hear updates on matters that interest us. We have been friends in some cases for more than 30 years, and we choose to honor (or just tolerate) each others opinions and not speak to harshly on hot topics as we know we never really have the truth as it is presented.
I'm OK Morris, really. But the hijinks here, essentially a "woodworking" group, get under my skin on occasion.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (in snipped-for-privacy@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com) said:
| Morris Dovey wrote: | || Slow down, nailshooter, or you'll get left behind. Dig out a copy || of "Turn, Turn, Turn" and take a listen. | | Actually, for me it is The Youngbloods, "Let's Get Together". | || We've had enough polarization - and IMO, it's time to acknowledge || that allowing the politicians (of any and all persuasions) to || abandon the middle ground was a mistake worth laughing at. It may || be the most healthy thing we can do. | | I agree. But if you laugh at an issue and someone hears you that | is on the other side, they no longer see the humor. It's time to | get it on.
I guess I'm just getting old - my hide seems to have thickened over time (dermal sclerosis?) and lacking the energy to fight /all/ battles, I feel the need to remain as accepting of differences of opinion as I can; and save my energy for the battles where I'm capable of affecting the outcome.
| Rarely is this seen more often than in American politics. And what | bewilders me more than any other aspect of that is how vigorous and | blindly both sides of the political system (sorry, it boils down to | Dems and Reps, like it or not, so no screaming from alternative | parties - your time hasn't come) defend their pointless rhetoric. | And in this group that defense has gone from simple sticking out of | each other's tongues, to snotty and sarcasic commentary, to | threats. People use language and tone to bash each other here that | they would never use if faced in person with the individual they | are burning alive over their diffences. I work in an all male | industry... remarks made here from the safety and anonyminity of a | monitor and keyboard would result in a loss of teeth... not because | of disagreement on issues, but on the completely disrespectful tone | used.
Anonymity allows cowards to speak brave words. I think it's as true for usenet as it was for CB radio. On the other hand, usenet is also a medium in which a certain amount of respect is afforded those who show respect for others and accept that many things can be seen in more than one way.
| To me it is more than profoundly stupid to defend any of the | mongrels we have in politics today. Both parties carry the stench | of greed, lies, and self serving agendas wherever they go and | whatever they do. They don't care about any of us; and it is | amazing to me that anyone thinks their respective "representatives" | might. How childishly naive can they be? There is no difference | in the parties we have at all. Not one bit; anyone that keeps up | with the news at all can say that one group is worse or better than | the other. Politicians (except of couse, the one you like) dont' | care about any of us unless it is time for fundraising, reelection | or face time with the press.
I'm inclined to agree; but feel compelled to assert that there are good people with solid principles and high ideals on both sides of the aisle.
A few years back I was invited to accompany newly-elected Governor Tom Vilsak in walking presidential candidate Bill Bradley through the Iowa State Fair (I'm still not sure how that came about since I was registered as an independent) - and came away from the experience with tired feet and a profound respect and liking for both men.
| And worse, to use our system of news reporting a source of factual | data is a bigger joke still. Where do we get out "facts"? What | makes your source of facts, the ones used for the frequent acid | bath administered here by those that disagree with each other, the | "correct source"? The worlds's news system is a joke, manipulated | by the owners and editors of that media to sell papers, air time | and commercial space. (Still though, my favorite from Homer , " | But Marge... I saw it on the internet, that means it has to be | true..." or with Homer *sobbing*, "But TV wouldn't lie to me... | would it?") But any "fact" that is convenient is pulled out and | used as needed when is taken for undisputed truth if it serves the | cause of angry dispute.
Truth is sometimes a slippery critter. I suspect that when it became a commercial commodity, it became a bit "bendy". Still, there has ever been a need for the receiver to listen critically. I don't recall that dispassionate objectivity has /ever/ been in oversupply...
Although it's sometimes pretty tiresome, disagreement is one of the signs that different people are looking at different aspects of a problem (or looking differently at the same aspects) and arriving at different conclusions. I see this as a fundamentally healthy sign. The passion with which people speak is simply an indicator of how much of themselves they've invested in the issue.
I agree that little purpose is served when civil discussion devolves into attacks on the participants...
| And even worse still, is the fact that all the ugly political | threads here are just running, hateful commentaries populated by | playground style one-upsmanship. Both sides carry the arrogant | lack of humility that has become requisite to particiapation here. | Yet, while these indignant warriors carry their banner highly as | long as it is in front of the computer with a cup of coffee or | chatting with their like minded friends. I don't know (I could be | mistaken) of any that go out and do anything about their highly | principled extreme positions. Not even attending a city council | meeting.
I'll agree that there are varying degrees of maturity brought to any (all?) threads on usenet - but I think you might be at least a little surprised at the number of people who quietly act on their principles...
| Sure it lots of fun to belittle each other here, though. You don't | know the guys here, you won't run into them at the grocery store, a | school function, etc., so you can be the badass you always thought | you were. Bury each other with pointless facts, clever rhetoric, | and sarcasitic sniping until it gets ugly because someone cuts too | deep... then it really starts. Why if you were just there in | person, you might even kick some ass!
Well, it's that anonymity problem again. Still, after reading here for a while, I've begun to feel that I'm developing a sense of who/what many of the regulars are really like as individuals.
| What got me going here was the fact that a post was made that was | clearly marked OT, and had in the subject an apology, invoked a | thinly veiled threat. So how thin skinned are we going to get? | Are we only allowed to post a silly throw away attempt at humor if | the group guardians approve it? I do not agree with some of the | things posted here, but how much further does one need to go than | to mark it upfront to keep from getting personally attacked for an | attempt at humor? I don't agree with the many of the OTs posted | here, but thankfully they are marked "OT", and if the content | offends me I just don't go back. I don't feel any need to control | this group.
Good - the group doesn't need controlling; and it's not of primary importance that it be under control. Usenet being what it is, it's only necessary to grow a thicker skin. :-)
| The deviseness of which you speak is no more apparent anywhere than | it is here. My personal posts were to help the normal process of | hysterical screaming and hate mongering along to an immediate | crescendo and thusly (hopefully) a quicker end. In a not to subtle | manner, I was really trying to encourage (or in a perfect world, | discourage) another long, nasty thread. Along the way I was | hoping that some of the more vitriolic of this group would get the | hint. So little time is spent on woodworking here compared to any | subject that deals in any negative aspect.
I recognized your attempt <vbg> - and I also recognized how important it is to recognize mistakes and make those things the object of humor, so that some degree of balance can be restored (so we can move on to more pleasant thoughts like beer and woodworking). This takes a bit of time and effort; and resists hastening. In a typically usenet fashion, the group is working toward some degree of consensus (IOW rediscovering common ground). Thus my comment that if you didn't slow down you might be left behind...
| So Morris, I'm OK. I agree with you. I am sick of all the | fighting. I'm right there with you on "Turn, Turn, Turn". But sir, | we are few and far between. The art of gentle disagreement is | lost. The respect for another's opinion has been replaced by "I'm | right, and since you dont' agree with me, screw you". No political | party will make a change, it has to come from the people; but that | should be for another topic.
I don't see it as quite so black and white. Sometimes (frequently?) gentle disagreement (and sometimes agreement) is expressed in silence.
| I am about as far right conservative on some issues as one can get, | and pretty damn far left on others. Most of my friends are the | same way. We respect each other's opinons and we like to hear | updates on matters that interest us. We have been friends in some | cases for more than 30 years, and we choose to honor (or just | tolerate) each others opinions and not speak to harshly on hot | topics as we know we never really have the truth as it is presented. | | I'm OK Morris, really. But the hijinks here, essentially a | "woodworking" group, get under my skin on occasion.
Sounds fairly normal to me. I've found that there are times when my tolerance is at low ebb - and at those times I either don't read usenet or read but don't reply.
I already knew you were OK - or I wouldn't have posted.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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Morris Dovey wrote:

Just be careful which end you grab.
I ran into an observation regarding political correctness the other day that I think has wider use. It's a little vulgar, but I think that helps the illustration so I'll relay the vulgarity, too.
It was stated that PC is based on the assumption that you can throw a turd by the clean end. (or words to that net effect).
Arguments about politics seem to me to make a similar error in assuming that politics is the source of the answers to our problems when the historical evidence might suggest that it is, instead, the source of the problems themselves.
Just food for thought and my perspective on the whole plate of spaghetti. The topic is, of course, open for debate, but I won't join in it.
Nill
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Bill in Detroit (in snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com) said:
| Morris Dovey wrote: | || Seize the day! | | Just be careful which end you grab. | | I ran into an observation regarding political correctness the other | day that I think has wider use. It's a little vulgar, but I think | that helps the illustration so I'll relay the vulgarity, too. | | It was stated that PC is based on the assumption that you can throw | a | turd by the clean end. (or words to that net effect). | | Arguments about politics seem to me to make a similar error in | assuming that politics is the source of the answers to our problems | when the historical evidence might suggest that it is, instead, the | source of the problems themselves. | | Just food for thought and my perspective on the whole plate of | spaghetti. The topic is, of course, open for debate, but I won't | join in it.
Did I just see you grab that one by the clean end? <vbg>
Out here in farm country excrement is a normal fact of everyday life. We move small amounts with shovels, larger amounts with specialized machinery, and we even have contests at the state fair to see who can throw a "cow pie" farthest. Not PC to mention it; but agriculture is all about turning excrement into the food we all eat.
Interestingly, PC becomes less important as one travels deeper into farm country - perhaps because the times between harvest and planting allow a bit of time to consider issues in greater depth than seasonless 9-5 jobs permit. Here, PC takes a back seat to respect for the individual and "yabbut does it /work/?" kinds of issues.
My view is that politics is _both_ the source of problems and the source of solutions.
Soil and water are important here, too. During the last election campaign, someone quipped that: "He who throws mud, loses ground," and that's pretty much the way the vote here played out.
Advice to politicians: whatever you find in your hand - don't throw it!
Since I mentioned soil and water, I might as well put in a plug for the third important element - the sun. I build the "machinery" to harvest its warmth.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
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Let's you and him fight???
Old Guy

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You mean the same people who thought Republicans offered something Democrats didn't a couple of years ago?
:)
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<snip>
Even a fool appears wise when they remain silent.
Steve
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Mon, Dec 4, 2006, 4:22pm (EST+5) snipped-for-privacy@home.net (George) did poareth: Just picked this up from a friend, and it's just too funny not to pass on. 2008 Democratic National Convention Schedule <anip>
The part about nominating Hillary Clinton scares the crap out of me, even joking. The rest was fairly humerous..
JOAT I am, therefore I think.
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(George) did poareth: Just picked this up from a friend, and it's just too funny not to pass on. 2008 Democratic National Convention Schedule <anip>
The part about nominating Hillary Clinton scares the crap out of me, even joking. The rest was fairly humerous..
The Republican one was humerous, the Democratic one was scary but more honest one. I think out of respect to Teddy not all his toasts were mentioned. ;~)
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: The Republican one was humerous, the Democratic one was scary but more : honest one.
    How so? They both were caricartures.
        -- Andy Barss
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