OT again: Parents could be fined for missing school meetings

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Sometimes we have to swallow a bitter pill on they way to where we need to be.
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Leon wrote:
| || Leon wrote: || ||| While I don't like government to be involved any more than the ||| next person, something has to be done and right or wrong you have ||| to start some where. || || The end justifies the means? | | Sometimes we have to swallow a bitter pill on they way to where we | need to be.
One of the reasons we studied history in school is so that we can avoid the poisonous ones when they're offered.
I'm certain that your intentions are good; but being well-intended doesn't make this approach even a little bit less toxic.
I'd like to suggest that in the context of purely good intention, the distinction between "right or wrong" is of considerable importance. Would you have your state and your schools teach otherwise?
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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Can't teach "right and wrong," as we know. Can teach the concept, but even there you have to select your analogy carefully. Ten commandments bad, Supreme Court decisions good, as long as they support the most vocal faction.
Aren't "rights" about the end rather than the means and "obligations" about the means to the end? Of course those would _never_ be the inalienable rights granted by The Creator....
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George wrote:
|
|| I'd like to suggest that in the context of purely good intention, || the distinction between "right or wrong" is of considerable || importance. Would you have your state and your schools teach || otherwise? | | Can't teach "right and wrong," as we know. Can teach the concept, | but even there you have to select your analogy carefully. Ten | commandments bad, Supreme Court decisions good, as long as they | support the most vocal faction.
Yuppers. We _can_ teach history - and if we don't dumb it down to the memorization of dates and names, then we can examine significant events and look at their causes and precursors. Perhaps I should have substituted "works" for "good" and "doesn't work" for bad; and perhaps I should have indicated that there's usually some grey area between (but, in my mind, the grey area mostly represents "doesn't work very well.")
Thinking back to my own school days, I dimly remember being invited to decide for myself how well things worked out. I do remember quite clearly my seventh grade history/social studies teacher's positively wolfish grin when I asked why there seemed to be so many paths leading to undesirable consequences - and so few leading to the desirable ones.
| Aren't "rights" about the end rather than the means and | "obligations" about the means to the end? Of course those would | _never_ be the inalienable rights granted by The Creator....
Methinks this pond is muddy enough already. :-)
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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And uphill difficult, to boot ....
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;~) And apparently we have not learned from the recent history that an unruled class will be disruptive.

I am certainly up for a better suggestion to solve the problem. Some times you simply have to go with something and improve from there. Until parents take their kids education and behavior at school seriously, something has to be done to correct non participation of the parents. If the $500 fine helps to remedy the problem by getting the parents more involved then perhaps the parents involvement will lead to better answers.

I agree that the difference between right and wrong is totally what we are going for. If the kids see that non parental involvement is a problem perhaps the parents standing up to help with their kids will also teach what is right.
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Leon wrote:
| | || || One of the reasons we studied history in school is so that we can || avoid the poisonous ones when they're offered. | | ;~) And apparently we have not learned from the recent history | that an unruled class will be disruptive.
If you're talking about kids in a class, my experience has been that teachers have a far greater role than parents in determining the amount of disruption. In saying that I don't intend to place blame on teachers nor diminish the role parents play - but I have seen classes that one teacher absolutely could not control be wonderfully orderly for another.
But the bill under discussion doesn't seem to be about students and classroom behavior. It's about controlling _parents'_ behavior.
|| I'm certain that your intentions are good; but being well-intended || doesn't make this approach even a little bit less toxic. | | I am certainly up for a better suggestion to solve the problem. | Some times you simply have to go with something and improve from | there. Until parents take their kids education and behavior at | school seriously, something has to be done to correct non | participation of the parents. If the $500 fine helps to remedy | the problem by getting the parents more involved then perhaps the | parents involvement will lead to better answers.
If fines are really a solution, then I'd cap the fine at the after-tax amount earned by the best-paid parent for a single day's work - as shown on the most recent pay stub(s) - perhaps reduced for work time lost due to the court appearance.
|| I'd like to suggest that in the context of purely good intention, || the distinction between "right or wrong" is of considerable || importance. Would you have your state and your schools teach || otherwise? | | I agree that the difference between right and wrong is totally what | we are going for. If the kids see that non parental involvement is | a problem perhaps the parents standing up to help with their kids | will also teach what is right.
Then please accept my assurances that the legislation, as proposed, will also hurt _kids_ - which IMO is _wrong_.
Further, if you teach the next generation that the end justifies the means, then you will have taught them the same rationale being used to justify the murder of innocent people with car bombs in middle eastern marketplaces and houses of worship.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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Because the teachers do not teach the kids to be disruptive, the next responsible person in line is the parent. A majority of the time a student that is disruptive does not have enough adult supervision. the teacher cannot devote as much attention as the parent. The reason to fine the parents is because most all measures in getting the parent involved have been exhaulsted. If a 12 year old child torches a neighbors car, should the parent not be called to take action? School should be prepairing our kids for real life. Unfortunately undisiplined kids have a rude awaking when they get into the real world and have to face the concequences of their actions. That is mostly thier parents fault. We like to think that it is some one elses responsibility but no one is more responsible than the parent. Teachers are paid to teach. Shall we help them do their jobs?

That actually would very very often be far in excess of $500. I live in a very modest sized home, 1,300 ft. and a majority of my neighbors live in like sized homes. For a fact a couple of my close neighbors gross in excess of $200,000. I feel a fine that gets the parents attention would be the best method and I am still up for reinvesting the parent's fine into the tutoring of his child into what ever area the childs needs along with more parental involvement.

I do not for one second think that the proposed legislation will be good for all kids. Regardless of what happens there are going to be some that are left behind but doing nothing will be worse for more.

There is a difference between lawful and unlawful acts.
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"Leon" wrote in message

What I like about the proposal doesn't even outweigh what I dislike about it, but the fact that it does not involve money flowing _out_ of the government to solve a problem ...but the contrary ... and that it is financially punitive to the irresponsible and not the responsible, is its appeal to me that convinces me that it may indeed, be worth a shot.
But, admittedly a long shot at that ... but lawd knows nothing else has worked.
And none of the arguments I've seen here have come close to dissuading me from any of the above ... as well meaning as most of the participants are.
This has been an interesting discussion, but there appears to be some acrimony creeping in, and, since the weather is nice and I no longer need flames from the wRec to keep me warm, I'm gonna bow out.
Y'all have a nice day ... hehehe
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Leon wrote:

As I said in another post, doing the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing at all. And this "fine" system is the wrong thing.
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Says you. I would rather try and fail than to sit back and whine.
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Leon wrote:

I'm not whining. I've explained in other posts, which I won't repeat hear, just a few of the reasons why I think the "fine" system is wrong. I've also proposed other solutions to the same problem.
But the fundamental problem is not the one the "fine" system even tries to address. It's the declining quality of public education as an institution. Yes, there are some very good teachers out there. But the system itself is in need of repair. You can't heal a broken leg with a bandage. And the "fine" system isn't even that. And yes, I am a concerned parent. I tried for years to effect some positive changes in the public school system, but the teachers' union is so entrenched that it is almost impossible. Just one example out of many: I have a son, who is actually quite intelligent, who flunked KINDERGARTEN. Now, how can a bright kid with motivated participating parents fail kindergarten? It happens because of the incompetence of the school teachers and administrations. By the end of second grade he could still barely read. We enrolled him in a private tutoring program, where he advanced nearly a year and a half in his reading grade level in SIX WEEKS. Which is one reason I've now got my children in private school. So don't try to tell me the problem in our educational system lies with irresponsible parents. From personal experience, I know better.
You say you would rather try and fail than to sit back and whine. Well, I have a proposal (not new to me):
Implement a way to give parents a meaningful choice in their children's education, rather than being forced to accept whatever they can get in their local public school system. Let the public education dollars follow the kid, wherever the parent wants to put him. Make the public school system compete with private schools for the children and the money that follows them. This will force public schools to clean up their act, and give the quality of education the children deserve. It will let parents vote with their feet. You want parental involvement? That will definitely lead to more parental involvement than punishing a parent for missing a meeting with a teacher would do. But more important, it would inject free enterprise into what is now a bloated beaurocratic monopoly.
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Absolutely correct. Unfortunatley parents do not watch what is going on. Parental involvement will initiate change in the system. The kids ARE part of the problem. Few with any sence want to baby sit disruptive illeritat children.
And the "fine" system isn't even that. And yes, I am a

With all due respect, you should have been on the spot long before he flunked that grade to remidy the situation. When my son ever was in danger om making a grade below an 80 on a report card I immediately scheduled a meeting with the teacher. My son was stricely an A,B student all through public school.
Now, how

I saw it happen with the same teachers as my son and with a child that may very well have had a higher IQ than my son's. He finished dead last in my sons graduating class. Unfortuantely he was not motivated. Both parents worked and he did not get the parental guidence that he needed. I am not saying that this is your case, I am only telling you how it can happen. Every child is an individual that no one knows as well as his parrent. The parents responsibility is to guide. I will confess that I was not the best student and while some classes were excprionally easy for me, standard classes some times were hard for me to even pass. I never had to study for my Physics class in college but English typically tore me a new one. I did not get a degree. I probably would have failed Kindergarten too. ;~) Although I did not do great in school, I managed to retire at 40, comfortably but certainly not in an affluent neighbohood. When my son started kindergarten I was not pro anything as far as school was concerned. I knew the system sucked but I did participated as a parent in my son's education. The more I participated the more I learned how important it is to take an active role in my son's education.

So do I.

I agree that the schools have problems but they are not all government problems. I agree with letting the tax dollars go to the school that you want. Unfortunatly even the great schools are not 100% with out parental participation.
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Leon wrote:

Kind of hard to do when the school teacher tells you things are going OK until the final grade comes out, proving the teacher had been lying all along.

I think nothing anybody will do will lead to 100% parental participation. But I also think parental involvement would go up significantly in a system where a parent actually has some meaningful control over what happens regarding the student's education, which is something the public school teachers' unions do not want to see happen.
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You saw none of your sons report cards, you saw none of your sons work, and he suddenly failed. What a shocker. You must be reeeeeely easy to fool.
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"Morris Dovey" wrote in message

In law and religion it most often does.
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Swingman wrote: | "Morris Dovey" wrote in message || Leon wrote: || ||| While I don't like government to be involved any more than the ||| next person, something has to be done and right or wrong you have ||| to start some where. || || The end justifies the means? | | In law and religion it most often does.
And the consequences have been ... ?
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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"Morris Dovey" wrote in message

_Irresponsibility_
Just think of the proposal as an attempt to break a cycle of irresponsibility when throwing money ("the means") hasn't resulted in a just end.
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wrote:

Depends on the end. IMO inducing a parent to meet with some minor government official (and that, when all is said and done, is what a schoolteacher is) does not justify a whole Hell of a lot in the way of means.
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J. Clarke wrote:

If I make am appointment with either my dentist or my doctor and I break the appointment and I fail to call to cancel the appointment I am charged for the office call anyway. To me, this seems fair. I have wasted his time and time is money. I have had the problem, pre-cell phone, when a problem on the freeway or something similar caused me to be too late to make the appointment and after explaining the situation, they waived the fee. Also fair. As a teacher, I believe that my time is as important as my dentist's or my doctor's time. The parent should either call or not make the appointment. As for the parent being "ordered to attend a meeting," I know of no state where a teacher can make such a demand. If you know of one, please share it with me.
Glen
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