OT again: Parents could be fined for missing school meetings

Page 4 of 11  
Leon wrote:

Name calling is also used as a cathersis for the name-caller, when he runs out of reasoned argument, to make him feel that he is doing something rather than doing nothing. Which, according to your argument, gives the name-caller a 50/50 chance of being right. Which illustrates the fallacy of your argument.
Another example. I see a woman in the mall, yelling at her child, calling it names and telling it other spiteful things, until the child breaks into tears. According to you, doing nothing about a wrong situation is always wrong. So it would be wrong for me to do nothing. So, I grab the mother's purse and take $500 out as a "fine." OR, I punch her in the mouth. OR, I grab the child and run out of the mall. After all, I'm doing something rather than doing nothing, so whatever I do, according to you, I have a 50/50 chance of being right. Right? According to you, of course right.
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Which is better than be in just plain wrong.

I have aproached women with unruley kids in the grocery store and offered to help. Neighborhood kids also. the wome are most often very appreciative. Seldom does a woman want to be the opject of observation for unruley kids.
So it would be wrong for me to do nothing.
If it was a cronic problem like it is in the schools, yes.

Then you would be breaking the law. That is wrong. Are you really this simple or just argumenatitive?

Try offering to help. That woud be doing something and right
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RE: Subject
It is a given that the public schools are a mess; however, the last place to get ideas to fix them is from the resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave and his cronies.
They have created enough problems.
Lew
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And while I agree,
Do we,
A. Do nothing? B. What do you propose?
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Leon wrote:
> And while I agree, > > Do we, > > A. Do nothing? > B. What do you propose?
IMHO, the problem starts with the litigious society we live in.
If a teacher looks the wrong way at a kid, they get sued.
More than once I got dressed down by a teacher and damn well knew enough to keep it to myself.
If my parents found out, it was better than even money my dad would have kicked my ass into the next state, never mind county.
Labor unions have and do serve a valid purpose; however, the teacher's unions have gotten out of hand.
The school administrations have become lazy. There is no incentive to be good stewards of the monies they are given.
The waste due to poor management runs rampant.
There are two extremes of the chain of command.
The shortest is the Catholic church. (The Pope to the Bishop to the Priest)
The longest is the army. It is a long chain of command from the president to a buck private.
Our schools need to be somewhere in between, probably closer to the Catholic church than the army, IMHO.
To summarize, they is plenty of blame to go around.
The schools, the teachers, and the parents are all at fault.
When and if the parents are willing to assume some responsibility and thus be able to demand a better product, they will get it.
Till then, good luck.
Lew
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We are mostly on the same page here Lew. Many changes need to take place. I blame the parents for letting it go this far. After that no one is innocent.
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I suggest sitting down and thinking of a solution that will work. What that is, I don't know, but I do know an across the board fine for missing a meeting is ridiculous.
Somewhere, somehow, parents need to be educated about children's behavior, and how it affects them and their classmates, as well as their later chances in the world.
How you do that with the severely uneducated, I don't know, unless they already have a drive to have their children become educated to escape their morass. Fining people with no sense of society for being being rude is not going to work.
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I suggest sitting down and thinking of a solution that will work. What that is, I don't know, but I do know an across the board fine for missing a meeting is ridiculous.
I have to think that this has been done time and again. The problem is, NEVER, are you going to please every one and you will always get the people that have excuses using others as an example. Valid excuses in some cases but lets not assume that the unfortunate may not be on board also. Let those that may be affected adversly voice their OWN openions on the matter. Knocking the proposal because of why it might affect others is a cop out. The under privilaged have the right to voice opposition if they feel the need.
You think the fine is ridiculous, I don't. That is a wash.
Somewhere, somehow, parents need to be educated about children's behavior, and how it affects them and their classmates, as well as their later chances in the world.
Yeah, this proposal would address that. Not as perfectly as you might think but it would make a difference in many cases. If you have a better way, suggest one, perhaps it will be considered unless the naysayers shoot it down.
How you do that with the severely uneducated, I don't know, unless they already have a drive to have their children become educated to escape their morass. Fining people with no sense of society for being being rude is not going to work.
Yeah, um I don't think that the proposal says anything about being rude. I mentioned calling to cancel an appointment a common courtesy because it is common courtesy. Calling to cancel just so happens to be a requirement to avoid an possible fine. So if you are a person that practices "common courtesy" making a phone call to cancel will not be a big deal for you.
Provisions are made for those with valid excuses for missing the meeting. I am sure a broken down car or stuck in traffic will be a valid excuse even if the call is not made before the meeting. Not calling to go to the hair dresser is not. And true, some people will lie and use a valid sounding excuse but a grand mother can only die a couple of times before things start looking fishy.
If we wait for a way to make parents come to the meetings that every one agrees with it will not happen untill the second comming.
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"Just Wondering" wrote in message

Horseshit! ... nothing in that sentence refers to you. You imagined any likeness, and only you know if the shoe pinches.

You on the right thread? Read the subject line to refresh your memory.

LOL ... never mind. Go back the first sentence and try again.
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Swingman wrote: | "Just Wondering" wrote in message | |||| I wonder what would have been the result if you had made an |||| appointment with the parent, who faild to show and was fined |||| $500 as a result? Would the fine have straightened out this |||| problem child? Or would it have bred more resentment in him, |||| leading to even worse consequences? | | To do nothing in fear of "worse consequences" is a cowards | attitude, a non-starter for solving any problem, and a good way to | guarantee their continuance.
Might be getting a bit emotional here - I haven't heard anyone advocate in favor of doing nothing to solve the problem - only opinions to the effect that Rep. Smith's proposed solution is a bit heavy-handed. If holding that opinion makes one a coward, then put me at the top of the list.
|| My point was that in this example, a system of punishing the || parent for not meeting with the teacher would not have benefitted || the student. | | Your "point" is actually blunt supposition/opinion, to which you are | certainly entitled, but which provably has no basis whatsoever in | fact.
Thus far, all that's been presented has been supposition/opinion (for both pro and con) - including the notion that missing a parent-teacher conference defines parental irresponsibility to an extent worthy of criminal prosecution, the notion that a $500 fine is reasonable and just, the notion that levying such a fine will solve the problem, and the notion that this particular solution won't invoke the law of unintended consequences.
| What we _do_ know as FACT: The current system, which does nothing | to hold an irresponsible parent accountable, is not working.
Are you saying that the system _will_ be working after enacting this piece of legislation?
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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I think what makes it emotional is that this is a proposal that is in a state that has problems that others may not have. Some of us are darn tired to educating illegal's children and them not participating physically or economically. Then there are the gangs and the parents that do not care. True, no one has really in so many words advocated that doing nothing would solve the problem. The fact is, NO one has suggested anything at all as an alternative. They have simply slamed this proposal and 98% will not be affected regardless of how it turns out in Texas.

So what would you consider a fair penalty that would get the parrents attention and his active participation in the social up bringing of his child? I would be interested in hearing a better one. I think that if the parents would have not ignored the cry's it would not have gotten this far in the first place. How about impose the $500 fine but it can be paid out over 12 months and all of the money goes directly back toward that childs education and supervision that he needs. Or the parent pays the fine and gets the money back after his child's behavior and grades has become acceptable. I am totally up for suggestions. The real shame is that it has had to come this far to get the parents attention.

No, nothing guarantees that. There are no guarantees in life except that if we do not get involved in our childrens education and behavior it will continue to get worse.
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Leon wrote:
| || Swingman wrote: | || || Might be getting a bit emotional here - I haven't heard anyone || advocate in favor of doing nothing to solve the problem - only || opinions to the effect that Rep. Smith's proposed solution is a bit || heavy-handed. If holding that opinion makes one a coward, then put || me at the top of the list. | | I think what makes it emotional is that this is a proposal that is | in a state that has problems that others may not have. Some of us | are darn tired to educating illegal's children and them not | participating physically or economically. Then there are the gangs | and the parents that do not care. True, no one has really in so | many words advocated that doing nothing would solve the problem. | The fact is, NO one has suggested anything at all as an | alternative. They have simply slamed this proposal and 98% will | not be affected regardless of how it turns out in Texas.
I'm sure that it won't surprise you to hear that the situation isn't limited to Texas. Texas and California probably have the greatest number; but it's become an issue everywhere - and I think more people will be affected than you'd guess.
Interestingly, the illegals up here seem eager to participate; and the general attitude toward them is anything but hostile. It may be that the climate does some kind of sorting - or it may just be some kind of (agri)cultural affinity.
|| Thus far, all that's been presented has been supposition/opinion || (for both pro and con) - including the notion that missing a || parent-teacher conference defines parental irresponsibility to an || extent worthy of criminal prosecution, the notion that a $500 fine || is reasonable and just, the notion that levying such a fine will || solve the problem, and the notion that this particular solution || won't invoke the law of unintended consequences. | | So what would you consider a fair penalty that would get the | parrents attention and his active participation in the social up | bringing of his child? I would be interested in hearing a better | one.
I took a shot at this further downthread; but don't know whether my suggestion would be an improvement or not. Some demographic/economic info would certainly make thoughtful discussion much easier - and it sounds as if there's a lot more heat than light being radiated.
| I think that if the parents would have not ignored the cry's it | would not have gotten this far in the first place.
Agreed. Since you raised the issue of illegal aliens (I'm assuming Mexican), I've been wondering if lack of proficiency in English and/or fear of being deported might not be significant factors...
| How about impose the $500 fine but it can be paid out over 12 | months and all of the money goes directly back toward that childs | education and supervision that he needs. Or the parent pays the | fine and gets the money back after his child's behavior and grades | has become acceptable.
If you're determined to get that $500 fine, how about payback when the youngster graduates from high school - or payback with interest in the form of tuition vouchers if the youngster has been admitted to a college degree program? No high school graduation, no payback at all. This approach might constructively address several problems at one time.
| I am totally up for suggestions. | The real shame is that it has had to come this far to get the | parents attention.
I agreee - but it's important to not let pent-up frustration lead us to produce problems worse than the one we're trying to solve.
||| What we _do_ know as FACT: The current system, which does nothing ||| to hold an irresponsible parent accountable, is not working. || || Are you saying that the system _will_ be working after enacting || this piece of legislation? | | No, nothing guarantees that. There are no guarantees in life | except that if we do not get involved in our childrens education | and behavior it will continue to get worse.
The question was rhetorical. FYI, this parent made a point of getting together with a group of his kids' teachers for coffee every Friday after school. Poor kids couldn't do anything their dad didn't hear about. :-)
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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No, not suprised, 90 years ago it was the Europeans and more of a notheren exposure. The propblem does seem to be more concentrated in the souther border states.

Maybe it is a far from home thing. ;~) The illegals here are more concentrated and many are into drug trafficing. They want to remain unseen. In more isolated cases they probably mix better. When they allow their kids to skip school and parade holding the American flag up side down and raising the Mexican flag with the Viva Mexico chant that they tend to get on every ones nerves. Anyway, they could at least contrubute to their own welfare.

I suspect that those factors are a big problem. I bet however if they showed up at the school there would be no problem with translations since Spanish a almost an offical language in Texas.

That sounds stronger than my thoughts but that would seem reasonable to me also.

Good for you Morris. My hat is off to you.
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snip
Oh, good grief. Problems "others may not have." The illegal alien problem is spread across every state, with the possible exception--not probable--of Alaska. It may be larger in Texas and SoCal and Arizona and New Mexico...oh, wait. We are past the "other states" already. Virginia has problems with it, NY has more problems with it, and on.

And that is the simple truth. Probably 90% of the problem with American education today is lack of parental involvement, even to the degree of making sure kids do their homework.
There are behavioral problems, even in rural areas in the Bible Belt where you wouldn't expect a girl to get in-school (WTF is this?) suspension for giving a guy a BJ in the high school hallway.
Do we blame that on the school? Parents? Church? Two out of three ain't bad, and the school is not part of that of that equation.
Public schools HAVE to accept anyone within specific areas in specific age ranges, at least until behavior becomes so bad they can be kicked out. Private schools, and home schooling, get to cherry pick, taking only the kids who are either interested in learning or who can be motivated to learn without major problems. In the meantime, public schools deal with the thugs, creeps and disabled and get dumped on thousands of times daily for not "teaching our children enough" when probably half the time, the complainer's kid has been urinating on the books on the lower shelves in the library stacks.
Do public schools need to improve, on an overal basis throughout the U.S.? You bet. Does splitting off money for other systems make it easier for them to improve? Nope. Makes it easier for an already established elite to go on about their business of further separating themselves from reality.
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"Charlie Self" wrote in message

Well said!
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"Morris Dovey" wrote in message

If you had read the next sentence, instead of leaving it out, you would have answered your own question. ;)
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I'd say it won't make a blind bit of difference to anyone or anything except the parent who is fined. Cost of collection is likely to exceed revenue, for one thing.
We're arguing about this as if all the school systems not using it are failing (or vice versa); I have to sit back and wonder just how big a problem broken appointments truly is. How many parents actually make appointments and then don't keep them, on a state-by-state basis? In other words, how many are extremely rude?
It strikes me, and this may be totally wrongheaded, that the problem exists mainly in inner city schools, with some slop-over into other urban schools, some suburban and a few rural. I've heard complaints here about parents not showing up for parent-teachers days.
In other words, how big a problem are they trying to cure with draconian measures that seem likely to be illegal or unconstituional to start, and to engender irritation otherwise.
Someone commented that it would be nice to get the druggies' and topers' attention and make them responsible parents. That is particularly laughable in view of the general failure of almost all behavior modification programs for such behavior. Adding one more censure and fine is a ludicrous step, and one that's probably not even noticeable to the parent floating away--is that what happens?--on a crack cloud, or submerging in a wine fog.
But we come back to the problem's size. How big is it? This time around, I'd think size really matters, IF the law turns out to be Constitutional.
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It may bery well not make a diufference. I suspect that it will work on those that are part time participators more so than those that simply are not going to participate. If ther were no penalty many would disobey the speed limit.

I am sure that a large percentage are doing just fine. The HS that my son attended was by invetation only or if your borthers and sisters attended. the qualifier was simply to have made passing grades 2 years prior to attending and that your conduct grade be at least satisfoactory for those years. The school did very well on state testing the drop out rate was extrememy low. The community was mostly lower income.

I think it focused on a small town close to Houston in Brazoria county IIRC.

In some areas I'm sure it is a big problem but to single out a few problem schools tends to rub some people the wrong way.

I mentioned that and was hoping to get a laugh as the person I was responding to was using the same extreme examples of why some would not be able to attend the meeting. You and a few others "got it". It certainly was a far fetched example as were the ones like the single mother of 8 working 2.5 jobs. Possible but very un likely.

In the community that it is being consider in, pretty large. The simple solution is to simply get or stay involved in your child's education and behavior. Don't let it get that far if a problem is beginning to show. If you live in an area that most parents are actually tax paying US citizens and speak English the problem may not be so much. If you have nothing to hide you typically have fewer reasons to not attend your child's meetings.
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So, fining the owner will not keep a dog from barking or biting, either. Fond of making easy answers for imaginary issues?
My experience was presented in support of the position that expelling troublemakers does not mean they're out of the system. Sorry to have confused you.
Did it ever occur to you that the law can only punish law breakers? All the traditional processes pertain toward determining that guilt. It would be nice if promulgating a law ensured compliance, but, sadly, not so. Even a good law.
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George wrote:

Your attempt at an analogy is garbage. "This example" dealt with behavioral problems of a sociopathic child. If someone owns a barking dog, a fine might force the dogowner to solve the problem by putting a muzzle on the dog, or giving it away, or even having it put down. Try any of those solutions with a sociopathig child and see where it gets you.

And my point was that using the heavy hand of government to take $500 from a parent for missing a meeting with his teacher would not solve the problems caused by this particular sociopath. Did I confuse you?

I wasn't confused before, but I am now. Are you suggesting that the solution to improving parental involvement in a child's education should be to criminalize parental behavior that some low-level government beaurocrat considers not sufficiently cooperative? And if you're not suggesting that, then why defend the "fine" system discussed in this thread?
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