OT - $4/gal Gas Threshold Crossed - Dam Breaking

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charlieb wrote:

And still want them. If you don't like it that doesn't alter the fact.

And the "little cheap Japanese" cars didn't do well in the market. Eventually the Japanese figured out what the market wanted and started selling it. But it wasn't particularly little or particularly cheap.

Thus moving the station wagon (remember them) outside of the CAFE standards. Very clever move. And soccer moms need station wagons.

The Hummber? Developed by AM General in South Bend Indiana to a US Army requirment? And later sold to the public because the public demanded it? Waht exactly does it have to do with "Detroit" "getting it"? If anybody doesn't "get it" with the Hummer it's the Department of Defense--if you don't like Hummers take it up with _them_. Aside from lacking armor though, they seem to be doing just fine at what the Army bought them for.

So what?

I'm not sure I understand your point here. Seems to me that you want "Detroit" to keep making trucks, you just don't want anybody but rental companies to buy them. Well, I'm sorry, but the manufacturers don't have that kind of control. Are you suggesting that legislation be enacted forbidding individuals from buying trucks or something?

The CAFE standards that apply to the cheap little cars that you seem to favor are different from the ones that apply to trucks. The CAFE standards could be changed to require that cars get ten million miles per gallon and that would have no effect whatsoever on trucks.

You don't live in Connecticut, do you?

Well, actually it does. You need a certain amount of volume in order to fit a certain sized person. Volume requires structure and affects frontal area. Structure adds weight. Frontal area adds drag.

Well, actually I think that that had more to do with a level playing field--Japanese labor costs then were very low compared to the US.

And unlike Detroit, the Germans cannot meet the US CAFE standards and pay a tax every year on their gas guzzlers.

So where does one read this history of automobile manufacture?
Charlie, quite frankly between this and your Adobe problems most of which result from your refusal to make an online purchase you're coming across as nuts.
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charlieb wrote:

Yeah, they get it. They've always "gotten it". The trouble is that what they've "gotten" has been what the market wanted and not what professional do-gooders such as yourself _want_ the market to want.
Now the gas prices are up to a point relative to incomes that many people want smaller vehicles instead of or in addition to their large ones, and they'll "get" that as long as it remains the case and when incomes rise to adjust for inflation, if they ever do, and people want large vehicles again, they'll "get" that as well.
Auto manufacturers do not hold guns to peoples' heads and force them to buy specific models you know.

And if everything you need to carry fits into one then Miatas are nice.
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Anyone remember the gas crisis of '72? We went through the same thing. For a brief period, you couldn't give away a gas hog, but it wasn't all that long until things levelled out (I can't say why) and big, high performace cars were in demand again.
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wrote:

The original gas lines were because of the price freeze on every thing that Nixon imposed. Oil companies said they could not make a profit and quit buying expensive foreign oil. That caused a shortage. Once the price freeze was lifted, so were the shortages and lines. Gas hogs and high performance vehicles got less than 10 mpg back then, and get about 50% better now.
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Not necessarily. My '69 Mercury Cyclone Cobra Jet 428 got 12mpg around town and 16mpg on the highway. And I eventually traded it because hi-test gas was too expensive at $.429 per gallon.
Damn, I miss that car.
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Richard Evans wrote:

The '76 460 Lincoln that's slowly rusting away in my driveway (sooner or later I hope to restore it--it was my mother's car and has sentimental value) usually did about the same.
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On Wed, 28 May 2008 19:59:35 -0400, "J. Clarke"

Cool car!
I had a '78 2 door with a 460, in the early 1990's. Somebody gave it to me.
It would pass anything but a gas station! I think it had a 38 gallon tank...
It was a fun car to drive, but I would have killed for 12/16. Mine got more like 10 overall. I was able to replace the Mark with a brand new 1992 Mazda Protege for my wife's commute between Meriden and East Hartford, CT. The Protege's monthly payment, fuel, taxes, and full insurance coverage were less than the monthly gas bill on the Lincoln. <G>
Every time I backed the Lincoln up for first time of the day, I got a shower from the sunroof!
I always got a kick out of the fact that my Ex-Ryder '86 Ford E350 dualie 14' hi-cube, one of my PA trucks, was lighter than the Lincoln when empty (5800 vs. 6000). The 10,000+ GVW hi-cube only had a 351...
The Lincoln was the only car I ever saw that could fit a 4x12 Marshall half-stack and a guitar in the trunk!
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I had a '58 Cadillac that could carry 4x8 sheets of plywood in the trunk. They stuck out a bit, but I did it many times. There was enough room between the bumper and the radiator I could put a stool there to sit on when I was working on the engine.
Man, those were the days.
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That engine was a real sleeper. I had a friend that had a Torino with the CobraJet 428 ? 9?. Sounded pathetic, as I recall the AIR pump was the loudest thing under the hood, but blew away 396 Malibu's.
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It was rated at 325 HP, but I read years later that it was intentionally underrated to get it by the insurance companies. Actual output was something over 400 HP. Mine was the only one I've ever seen. I read on the Web that there were only something like 126 made.
Good set of pictures here.
http://www.streetrodshack.com/images/1969Cylcone/1969Cyclone_07.JPG
Mine was flame orange.
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Sorry, that's only one picture. The collection is here:
http://www.streetrodshack.com/details_1969Cyclone.htm
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wrote:

I miss my 62 Vette AND those gas prices..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
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On Wed, 28 May 2008 18:59:20 -0400, Richard Evans

Sold my '73 Chevy Monte Carlo with the 454 for the same reason. 10/14 was the best it would do if babied. Sure did like that car though.
Frank
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Actually it was more of OPEC flexing its new found power.....the first oil embargo doubled gas from approx. 30 cents to 60 cents in 1973. The second embargo in 1979 took it from 60 cents to approx. $1.20. Nixon's ill fated inflation inspired price controls did raise havoc with beef and a wide assortment of other products. Nonetheless oil price controls did interfere with the market place since "old oil" was controlled, with new oil exempt .....it did make the lines longer as "well owners" withheld their old oil from the market place.......Thus the 1973 lines were worse than the 1979 lines...both sucked. Rod
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On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:59:35 -0400, Richard Evans

The Saudis started selling us oil again, that's why prices dropped.
There isn't a singular reason right now why oil is climbing in the US, so I'd think twice about jumping on that "great" deal on a gas guzzler. Nowadays, we beg for oil on a world market with a weak dollar, in full competition with other buyers, like India and China, we are now in the genuine world market. India and China weren't there in '72.
On the other hand, for those folks who really genuinely NEED a powerful tow or hauling vehicle... Personally, I would have to incorporate the lack of resale value into any gas guzzler purchased today when analyzing a prospective purchase, but there are some real "must sells" out there!
I bicycle to work ~ 150 days a year, and I'm amazed at the difference in driving "spirit" I see this spring vs. last fall during my commute displayed by "style trucks". Folks are driving with an egg under the accelerator foot! Last year, these folks never missed an opportunity to smoke it from traffic light to traffic light. I'm enjoying the lack of noise. <G>
By "style truck", I'm describing the loaded to the gills, 4x4 w/ 20" rims and low profile tires, leather quad-cab, short-bed, 3/4+ ton, and Hemi trucks, usually with Harley stickers and fiberglass tonneau covers with spoilers, used as commuter vehicles, as opposed to the typical trades-rig with a long bed, racks and boxes and dirt on it.
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B A R R Y wrote:

Well, the ones with the Harley stickers are forgivable--they need the truck to haul the bike to and from the bar.
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On Wed, 28 May 2008 19:57:48 -0400, "J. Clarke"

There you have it! <G>
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Actually the larger and more expensice the vehicle the more profit and percent of profit. Most of the profit goes to the workers and their benefits, thank you Labor Unions. If Detroit had been only building small vehicles for the last 30 years Detroit would have been a ghost town long ago.

I currently drive an 07 Tundra and it gets almost 15 MPG in town, almost 20 on the highway. My wife drives an 04 Accord that gets 22 in town and 30 on the highway. I'll give up the 5 and 10 mpg respectively for the comfort, room, and ability to haul most anything that we want.
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Leon wrote:

And here all this time I thought "profit" was what was left after expenses were deducted.
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Sorry Jack, ;~)
The profit you are talking about is "Net" Profit. I should have clarified that I was talking "Gross" Profit on each vehicle. Typically the higher the GP margin the more you have to pay the wages and benefits. After all those expenses and operating costs are deducted you end up with the Net profit.
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