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jo4hn wrote:

Someone who has strong Marxist-Leninist tendencies. Someone who has the worst possible friends and associates. Someone who has actively supported groups engaged in voter fraud. Someone who believes deeply in wealth redistribution. Someone who has a grand total of 143 days of "service" (out of 4 years in the Senate).
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Tim Daneliuk snipped-for-privacy@tundraware.com
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On Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:29:59 -0500, Tim Daneliuk
You know, I had a seminar course in Marxism back in the seventies and it took us an entire semester just to read the most elementary texts involved. Am I to assume that you mean the term as defined by the Stalinists, or are you more of a Trotskyite in your concept. Then again, you might be an admirer of the Khrushchevian definition, or perhaps the Maoist interpretation.
My point is that you are throwing around terminology that has more weight than your use of it.

You mean like "The Keating Five"? Perhaps you mean someone like Ken Lay? Maybe Bebe Rebozo?

Please! In Chicago! "I'm shocked..."

cf. "Whiskey Rebellion", c. 1790's.
yawn...

"MISSED VOTES: http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/m000303/votes/missed / John McCain has missed 407 votes (63.8%) during the current Congress."
"NEW YORK (CNN) -- Russia invades Georgia and President Bush goes on vacation. Our president has spent one-third of his entire two terms in office either at Camp David, Maryland, or at Crawford, Texas, on vacation.
His time away from the Oval Office included the month leading up to 9/11, when there were signs Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America, and the time Hurricane Katrina destroyed the city of New Orleans"
"George Bush Sr. took all or part of 543 vacation days at Camp David and in Kennebunkport. Ronald Reagan spent 335 days at or en route to his Santa Barbara, California, ranch during his eight years in office. Of recent presidents, Jimmy Carter took the least days off -- only 79 days, which he usually spent at his home in Georgia. That's less than three weeks a year, which is closer to the average American's paid time off of 13 days per year."
"What about Clinton? As of December 1999, President Bill Clinton had spent only 152 days on holiday during his two terms, according to CBS News."
BTW - this might be of particular interest to you:
"How much does John McCain know about his campaign manager's lobbying history and potential current business interests inside Ukraine -- and when did he know it?
The stakes of the answer to that question are increasing, due both to the continuing controversy over the role of lobbyists in McCain's second presidential run, as well as the press inquiry into the connections between McCain campaign manager Rick Davis and the global business and political interests in Ukraine, a country represented by the lobbying firm that bears his name -- Davis-Manafort.
The Davis lobbying firm offered political consulting services to the pro-Russian "Party of Regions" inside Ukraine."
(Where not specifically cited, quotes are from various news sources and you can look them up yourself.)
have a nice day.
tom watson
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BTW - I forgot to include Obama's missed votes by way of comparison.
I submit the following for your edification:
John McCain has missed 407 votes (63.8%) during the current Congress."
Barack Obama has missed 303 votes (46.3%) during the current Congress.
thank you for playing.
tom watson.
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You mean like "The Keating Five"? Perhaps you mean someone like Ken Lay? Maybe Bebe Rebozo?
McCain's friends don't hate whites, the USA, nor have they been involved in any bombings within the USA.
cm
wrote:

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Obama is not 'friends' with Ayers. He sat on a board with Ayers..a board which was put together by a republican. Stop perpetuating the lies. Get the facts. (Obama was 8 years old at the time of the bombings...so what are you saying? )
McCain's friends may not hate whites, but there is some question how they feel about blacks. Again, do your homework.
I don't like either as a leader of my neighbouring country, but I'll take the cool guy over the hothead any day. Besides, at 72, what does McCain have to lose? Owning 7 houses, what does McCain have to lose? Having no young children, what does McCain have to gain by supporting a fair future for them? McCain is truly out of touch.
Both candidates come up short, as do the ones we have to vote for this coming Tuesday. It is between: One you can't believe and one you can't understand.
And now that all banks worldwide are officially in bed together, we're all screwed anyway.
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wrote:

Obama is not 'friends' with Ayers. He sat on a board with Ayers..a board which was put together by a republican. Stop perpetuating the lies. Get the facts. (Obama was 8 years old at the time of the bombings...so what are you saying? )
He may not be freinds with Ayers but he does associate with him.
McCain's friends may not hate whites, but there is some question how they feel about blacks. Again, do your homework.
Hmmm, can't think of any that are on the pulpit preaching their hatred.
I don't like either as a leader of my neighbouring country, but I'll take the cool guy over the hothead any day. Besides, at 72, what does McCain have to lose? Owning 7 houses, what does McCain have to lose? Having no young children, what does McCain have to gain by supporting a fair future for them? McCain is truly out of touch.
I dislike both candidates. I'll be glad when this is over.
Both candidates come up short, as do the ones we have to vote for this coming Tuesday. It is between: One you can't believe and one you can't understand.
Good luck in your elections.
And now that all banks worldwide are officially in bed together, we're all screwed anyway.
Scary shit..... How's business now? Mine has slowed enough I am considering regular employment after 19 years of self employment.
cm
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you too? only problem with getting a regular job is FINDING ONE! sounds like we are in the same boat. good luck! we gonna need it...
skeez
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I have always manoeuvred to be in a position of strength. Cash positive. Only ever ran up credit with my suppliers to have it available to me for bigger projects (cheaper than bank money). But mostly, I would take advantage of the cash discounts (usually 15 days) for prompt payment. So, if business slows down, I make less money, but it never comes to a dead stop.
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I have been in the same + cash position for years. My shed is still pretty full of supplies I have purchased at deep discounts. Unfortunately medical bills over the last three years have eaten away at our savings. While we are not in financial trouble, I am a little worried. I have started using new sales tactics to increase business and have already enjoyed some success with that. It will have to get pretty bad before I really look for a job. I do not play well with others and have never held a job for very long. Hand picking the people I like working with is one of the things I enjoy everyday in my business. Every career I have ever had involves working with a token asshole who quickly drove me away.
Ironically my side business of reselling 1950's and older travel trailers has seen record sales this year, but most of that has been re-invested in more stock.
cm
wrote:

I have always manoeuvred to be in a position of strength. Cash positive. Only ever ran up credit with my suppliers to have it available to me for bigger projects (cheaper than bank money). But mostly, I would take advantage of the cash discounts (usually 15 days) for prompt payment. So, if business slows down, I make less money, but it never comes to a dead stop.
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Robatoy wrote:

Utter nonsense. Ayers domestic terrorism was well documented by the time Obama ascended to power. This did not stop Obama from making nice with Ayers. They are both political pondscum. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk snipped-for-privacy@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP /
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Naaaa.. Obama just 'reached across the isle'

I can't/won't disagree with that.
This is what the McCain goons spread around as gospel: Ayers and Obama ran a radical education foundation, together.
The truth is:
The foundation they are referring to is the Chicago Annenberg Challenge (CAC), set up in the early 1990s with funding from the Annenberg Foundation to reform public schools. Walter Annenberg is a well-known philanthropist and conservative Republican.
Utter nonsense, eh?
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Robatoy wrote:

True as far as it goes, but I think you're missing the point. The issue isn't just that St. Barak and Bill The Mad Bomber served on the same board. The issue is *how* they spent the money. Stanley Kurtz finally got the records pried open about 6 weeks ago as regards to just how the CAC money got spent. (He had to threaten legal action to get access to those records.) It's pretty horrific. Obama and Ayers together saw to it that this money meant for education reform got funneled into programs that amount to a madrassas for the radical left. e.g., Science programs did not get funded but programs concerning ethnic identity did get funded. Oh, and guess whose personal education programs received significant funds? Hint: Bomber Boy.
What people who do not live here in metro Chicago cannot see (because the Obama-worshiping media won't expose it) is that there is a significant radical/Marxist movement within the urban/black leadership:
Pfleger/Wright - The religious/theological arm Ayers - The educational arm Obama - The political arm
Obama isn't some bystander to this - he is *integrally* involved in, a part of-, and supporter of-, and a pillar of one of the most vile radical/Marxist cultural movements in the country. He is not an agent for change. He is the American equivalent of Hugo Chavez - more palatable certainly, a better speaker, a better dresser, but essentially of the same cloth holding common cause on the following beliefs:
1) The underclass are essentially victims through no fault of their own and have been exploited by the wealthy.
2) The middle class has been exploited by the wealthy and led astray by dreams of wealth.
3) The wealthy got that way dishonestly and must be punished (unless they are the wealthy that support liberal progressive Marxism).
4) Government is the answer to any and all significant social, cultural, and political problems.
5) We must all sacrifice in the name of the "common good", by force of government as necessary to ensure the appropriate level of sacrifice.
6) The US has done far more evil than good and should both be punished and required to make atonement to the rest of the world.
The fact that all these ideas are flatly wrong and entirely wrong doesn't keep the Ayers-Wright-Obama Axis Of Evil Ideas from being flogged regularly, first here, and now around the country.
This guy is a menace to our future...
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Oh, points you are now admitting into evidence? <G> Naughty, naughty, Tim

Nothing like a little nicknaming to belittle the opponents, eh?

Noooo, Tim.... YOU find it horriffic

Ahhhh.. MADRASSAS.. no less... nothing like injecting a little (implied of course..no balls for straight out accusations, eh?) filth implying that Obama is a muslim, eh? Tim, you just blew any respect I had for you and some of your views.
That is very disappointing. Your hidden agenda just reared its ugly little head. Shame on you.
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"Palin cited an article in Saturday's New York Times about Obama's relationship with Ayers, now 63. But that article concluded that "the two men do not appear to have been close. Nor has Mr. Obama ever expressed sympathy for the radical views and actions of Mr. Ayers, whom he has called 'somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8.' Riot and bomb conspiracy charges against Ayers were dropped in 1974, and he is now a professor of education at the University of Illinois in Chicago."
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/04/palin.obama /
"I hate the gooks," McCain said yesterday in response to a question from reporters aboard his campaign bus. "I will hate them as long as I live."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/02/18/MN32194.DTL
tom watson
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He may hate gooks but he keeps better company than Obama. McCain's church welcomes all. you can stop by anytime.
cm
wrote:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/02/18/MN32194.DTL
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Do you have the slightest glimmering of a concept as to how deeply stupid that comment is?
tom watson
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Tom,
I do believe you would be more welcomed at McCain's church over Obama's.
If you do make it over to McCain's Church stop by my place for a barbeque and some non political conversation.
cm
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t wrote:

Not that Tom is going to be swayed by the facts, but for those who might not have all the history, the above does not quite tell the whole story. The NYT article that Palin cited was a passing nod and standard media attempt to whitewash the whole Obama / Ayers alliance. That article probably killed a bunch of the editors at the NYT, a publication so far in the tank for Obama that they have to have air piped in, thus the article did its best to minimize the association and conclude that "there's nothing to see here, move along." I didn't hear the referenced speech, but it may have been along the lines of "even the NYT acknowledges interaction between Obama and Ayers" while not attempting to use that as the whole dialog. While charges may have been dropped against Ayers, that does not imply that he was innocent of the charges against him; as a matter of fact Ayers himself made the statement that he was "guilty as hell" and he regretted that they had not done enough. He told the New York Times in an interview that ran on 9/11 that he “didn’t regret” his terrorist bombings, and that he wished he’d done more. Obama wasn’t eight years old in 2001, was he? Those actions included bombing the Pentagon and the Capital; during those bombings a police officer lost his life. Soldiers at Fort Dix were intended to be the target of nail bombs that were being assembled by his then girlfriend, but fortunately those assembling the bombs were stupid and blew themselves up instead. The fact that he is now a professor of education is also a bit misleading -- yes, he is a professor of education, but that does not imply that he has given up his radicalism. His teachings are designed to teach educators how to indoctrinate their students about the evils of capitalism and how oppressive western society is. He has just shifted his focus from bombing infrastructure to destroying the structure of society by indoctrinating those going through public education.
As far as Obama's association with Ayers, it goes significantly beyond just "sitting on a board" with Ayers. Ayers hosted a fundraiser in his home when Obama started his first run for public office. Ideologues such as Ayers don't do those sorts of things unless there is an ideological connection. The fact that Obama worked on the Chicago Annenburg Challenge, an educational reform project intended to churn out political activists with Ayers is further indication that this was more than a "passing acquaintance" or that Obama was unaware of Ayers radicalism. Obama and Ayers voted to give $75,000 to Rashid Khalidi, a Yasser Arafat protege in the PLO, during their tenure with the Woods Foundation. The fact that Ayers supported Obama during his work on the Annenburg Challenge: No on just gives away money or places someone in charge of something if it is not believed that the person to whom they are giving that money or authority is going to be acting in the interests of the person granting that authority. This may not have been a friendship, but it was definitely an alliance. Imagine how Tom would be howling if McCain had such a close alliance with an abortion clinic bomber or some racist group as Obama has had with Ayers and Rev J. Wright.
Chicago Tribune commentary with some other links: <http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/orl-krauthammer1208oct12,0,4235704.story
As I said, Tom won't listen to any of this, but his extremely simplistic hand-waving away of this issue ("this is not the issue you are seeking, move along") cannot be left to stand without challenge.
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If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

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Mark & Juanita wrote: <SNIP>

Bingo. By his own colleagues' witness in the matter, McCain was guilty - at worst - of bad judgment in the Keating matter, no more.
For the record, I dislike both the major choices. But I also live in metro Chicago and am painfully familiar with the political "process" here. Obama, by all appearances, is a fine father and husband, and would probably be a good neighbor and friend. But his political alliances are revolting. If, say, a Republican, had the same level of disgusting political associations they would be (properly) excoriated for it. But St. Barak is supposed to get a break for some reason. I fail to understand why. We live in complex times. This is not an excuse for making nice with people who we know bombed US citizens and are unrepentant about the whole matter. It is not justified by "change". It is not justified at all.
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: Imagine how Tom would be howling if McCain had such a close alliance with : an abortion clinic bomber or some racist group as Obama has had with Ayers : and Rev J. Wright.
What about Palin's long-standing and continuing close ties to a radical anti-American political party (Go have a look at Old Joe Vogler's "I hate America" speeches)?? How about Steve Stoll, and Mark Chryson?
    -- Andy Barss
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