You know, that's a very good point. Apart from all the technical considerations (which Charlie B did a fantastic job of describing), this _is_ a hobby. Sometimes, I just need to turn off the rational side of my brain.
So, I think I'm going to get a Domino. AND a drill press. And a few other items....
Bas.
Go for it ...
The need for more complicated joinery is something most woodworkers face if they stick with it long enough, and they generally come face to face with Mt Everest when the need for accurate and repeatable compound angle joinery rears its head in projects like chair making.
"Loose or Floating" tenon joinery is a big step toward solving the problem, as it is comparable in strength with traditional M&T joinery and in many case stronger, particularly with compounnd angle joints where the tenon may have to be cut in an unfavorable grain or direction that actually weakens the traditional joint.
In short, the necessity to quickly and effectively do repeatable compound angle M&T joinery is a must have for production runs in a small shop. Both the M-R and Domino, as well as other solutions like the Leigh FMT, facilitate loose tenon joinery.
Both excel at compound angle mortising, with the Domino making the accuracy and repeatability factor _much_ more affordable for the home shop.
Besides doing a lot of cabinetry, I always have a furniture project of some type going in the shop ... if I didn't already own a Multi-Router, I would invest in a Domino in a heartbeat.
I've played with the Domino in the woodworking store. I liked it. Have not bought it yet because I have other uses for $1000 in the next couple months and won't have any time for woodworking. I see value in the Domino for the beginner, amateur woodworker because it will allow him/her to complete a project quicker, easier. You will be more productive. Yes the journey, process is important. But actually making something is darn nice too. The Domino allows you to make nice, good, quality mortise and tenon joints on normal sized pieces of furniture in a minimum of time. Little to no setup or layout time required. Just make a good mortise and tenon joint on your furniture and move on to completing, finishing the project. Making something is darn nice.
I do not use my DeWalt biscuit jointer much. I think of its biscuits as a cheap joint not suitable for real woodworking. Unlike the Domino loose tenon and mortise joints which I consider very acceptable joints for good furniture. Biscuit jionter is mainly, only used for edge jointing boards. And then the biscuits are just for alignment purposes, not adding any strength. Despite Norm using the biscuit jionter on every project it seems, I hardly use mine.
Drill press is a completely different tool. Useful for much more than drilling mortises. You probably need a drill press with or without a Domino or biscuit jointer. I use a U shaped jig and plunge router to make mortises. And table saw and dado blade for tenons. Lots of setup and time for a joint you never see. Domino would do the same, similar joint so much faster. And if I needed really big tenons and mortises, I could still do it with the plunge router and table saw for that once a year or decade project. Domino would likely be used 99% of the time on normal sized furniture. If I had to do it again, I would not buy a biscuit jointer.
Whatever... What I was trying to say is that IMO, when a new tool comes out, especially if it's only distributed by a high end company, it's going to be expensive..
However, since success breeds ruinous competition, there will be other machines like it on the market as soon as the demand is there... very much like the early biscuit jointers and plunge routers..
Umm... I think that was MY point... I don't care if it costs them $9 or $999 to make, I'm a consumer, not an engineer.. I also don't care how much it costs to make a plasma TV... but I'm glad I didn't buy on of the first couple.. *g*
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
If I owned a Multi-Router and felt the same way you feel about the Domino, I'd think about selling the Multi-Router now before the Domino became too popular, lowering what I could get for the M-R.
Nice try, but it's not for sale! :)
The M-R can do everything the Domino can, and very many things it can't. That said, I like to think I've been around long enough to recognize a good thing when I see it, and the Domino is a good thing for the small shop woodworker.
Hey, I had to try.
I agree, it does appear to be a very competent tool for the little shop. And, considering the amount of setup and usage time that it could save, the cost consideration is not all that relevant.
Not shallow at all, in fact you agreed with what I wrote.
The original poster was talking about the price of the TOOL dropping in price, not the price of the products made with the tool. I only brought that part up to illustrate my accurate analogy. Sorry you missed the point.
John E.
I understand what you're saying. I just don't think the price of the actual Domino will be dropping any time soon.
The tools to make plasma screens aren't any cheaper now, it's just become less expensive to buy one now that there are more manufacturers in the game and the market size has increased.
Put it this way, if a handsaw drops in price, do the prices of the things made with a handsaw also drop in price?
I have no doubt that Harbor Freight is already hard at work copying the technology behind the Domino. That doesn't mean that Festool is gonna drop the price on a real Domino.
John E.
And for good reason ... your diatribe was "pointless" and uninformative, except that it showed your ass.
Well, probably not. I strongly suspect that there is a pantent on the Domino. The Fein Multimaster has not had any real competition until relatively reccently when their patent expired. I have never seen any Festool prices drop and because they have a strict priving policy you probably will not see a drop in price. And like the Lamelllo plate joiner the Domino will probably remain at higher prices even after the patent runs out, if there is one.
Having been watching the plasma screen for many many years now. I suspect that the real reason that they are finally coming down in price is because the LCD screens which have no glare and are preferred in most cases over the plasma have been dropping to reasonable prices. I have noticed that when the LCD's reached the plasma prices that the plasma screens started dropping in price at the same pace as the LCD's. I strongly suspect that the plasma screen TV's will be obsolete sooner than later much like the old CRT computer screens have become obsolete.
priving policy you
the Domino will probably remain at >higher prices even after the patent runs
I am with you 100% on that. Fein has even patented their blades design and construction, and every time someone decides to start making knockoffs they are served. A machine shop guy I met on the 'net that was selling them for about half the Fein models told me that. He only made two models, a piece of bent sheet tool steel snap welded onto a nub to fit the tool, one wide and one narrow toothed blade, but that was close enough for Fein.
And who knows how much money went into designing a reliable sturdy tool like the Domino, as well as designing the tooling for manufacture? Literally millions, I have no doubt. So I suspect not only vigorous defense of their designs and patents, but for any aspect of that tool that would be considered their property.
I am willing to bet it NEVER goes down in price.
As you said, the Fein Multimaster is an excellent example of a comparable situation.
Robert
LOL ... Johneboy's still running irrelevant rabbit trails.
As you well know as a Domino owner, the _cost_ of the Domino is irrelevant to the woodworker who actually needs the tool to boost productivity because, like most investments that increase productivity, it will either pay for itself, or you didn't need it in the first place ... and with the Domino, most likely sooner rather than later.
I suspect beginners wouldn't normally spring for a grand when they've got the basics to purchase first - decent table saw, preferably a cabinet saw - with a good fence - joiner with infeed and outfeed tables long enough to deal with 4' long boards - and wide enough to deal with AT LEAST 8" wide boards - planer that'll handle 12" wide boards and maybe - a bandsaw - a miter saw or compound miter saw or sliding compound miter saw - with infeed and outfeed tables - and flip stops - a router table with a good fence system (see JoinTech/Incra) and an assortment of router bits - a drill press and drill bits - a decent plunge router for free handing/template following then there's the hand tools - block plane - smoother (#4) - jack plane (#5) - joiner (#6, 7 and/or 8) - maybe a shoulder plane - perhaps a router plane - a decent set of chisels (the blue handled Marples maybe?) - a dovetail saw - a tenon saw - card and cabinet scrapers And then there's the various sanders : : :
Any type of woodworking is a slippery slope - a hole in the gar - make that "shop" - into which money flows and scraps and piles of sawdust float out - with an occassionaly piece of furniture actually leaving. On the other hand, the non-monatarized value - can be priceless.
Swingman's answer gets to the interesting question I asked earlier "Can a tool change What you make AND How you make it?" and the subsequent question "Can joinery change What you make and How you make it?"
Adding mortise and tenon - or loose tenon mortise and tenon - joinery to your woodworking capabilities will certainly change your Project List. And if you have the disposable income to purchase the Leigh FMT, the DOMINO or the MultiRouter you're more apt to get to M&T sooner and use them more often than you would otherwise.
But - if you skip over doing some M&T joints using more traditional hand tool methods - you'll miss a wonderful, though occassionally frustrating, experience in your woodworking journey. The use of handtools gives you a better understanding of the woods you use, providing feed back which you seldom get from power tools. And the satisfaction obtained can make the "making" part of the journey as valued - by you - as the finished piece. And often, a hand tool will do the job faster and easier than breaking out a power tool, setting it up, making test cuts etc..
And Swingman wrote"
If you owned a MutiRouter I'd bet you wouldn't part with it no matter what new tool came along. The Leigh FMT and the DOMINO do mortise and tenons and loose tenon mortises. The MultiRouter does all that AND a lot more. Probably should add the WoodRat to the list as well.
But he does get points for trying to pick up a used MultiRouter at a discounted price. Nice try ; ).
charlie b
ps
there's a Festools Owners Group you might want to look into
FWIW, you will note that I have purposely limited my remarks/comments about the Domino to those who have a specific need for increasing *productivity* in a small shop environment, and with a very specific type of joinery ... one you rarely see practised by hand (floating/loose tenon).
Not me ... actually, I think that was Upscale? But my reply to him was almost verbatim what you said. :)
First let me say I do plan to purchase a dominio but dont think you should. As charlieb pointed out theres too many items too purchase before a Dominio. When you are ready to purchase a dominio dont forget a vac. The dominio will not work correctly without a vac. I could use my noisy shop vac but instead will purchase a festool CT22 vac. I do have a central DC system but that wont cut it.You have to decide if you want the Norm approach and have everything under power, or mix in card scrapers, hand cut dovetails,, block plane etc. with the power equip. A drill press wont make a mortise at the end of a long board so you have to learn to make a tenon with TS,Router, hand cut , etc.The festool stuff wont come down in price I agree, but the competitor products, Multi-router,FMT etc allready are coming down in price I suspect because of the dominio . Learn to make a tenon with more than one way and make a morise with drill press, router, hand. A complete woodworker knows different methods and does not rely on one.
You got a source for that? The M-R has not budged in price for years and a check with the only retail outlet authorized to publish a price for the M-R shows your statement to be suspect.
I can see MR owners adding a Domino to the quiver, not replacing one with the other.
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You're right ... but strange things happen, and it would likely be someone who used the M-R strictly for mortising. Even then I think it would be hard to give up the variable/increased mortise depth and size.
I'm a BIG fan of the Domino, but, like it's first cousin the biscuit jointer, it's plainly a one-trick-pony ... although one hell of a useful trick.
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