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"Proportionally, it is bigger because it's country wide." So, it's bigger even though it's smaller? Can't argue with that logic.
todd
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"Upscale" wrote

Nay, lad ... you've got it only partly right.
Driver runs into tree with his car. First guy on scene runs to the mangled vehicle, opens the door and asks the driver: "Are you badly hurt?".
Driver groggily looks up from his daze and says: "How the hell should I know? ... I'm not a lawyer!"
(Eat your heart out jo4hn ...)
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Since healthcare is a legal, enshrined right in Canada, the only stealing that's going on is your feeble opinion further warping your inane logic. But, I guess that's your business. You seem to relish playing the fool in this newsgroup. You have very little support with your screwed up thought processes and have quite effectively lowered yourself to the status of newgroup clown.
The only problem I have at this point is that I seem to get some type of perverse pleasure from poking you with a sharp stick. I'll get tired of you eventually since your rhetoric repeats itself ad nauseam.
What else have you got? You're going to have to try a little harder to keep me entertained if I'm going poke you some more.
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Upscale wrote:

It is *legal*, it is still stealing - i.e., It is immoral. Your inability to grasp that the law is not the instrument that defines morality may explain why you keep defending evil.

You are still appealing to the collective for some moral authority, I see. As you flail around irrationally, grasping the coattails of others and putting words in their mouths does not give your argument any credence - it undermines it. Whether or not any or all of the others here "support" my argument bears in no way to its merits and thus I couldn't care less one way or another.

Of course you enjoy this kind of perverse self-mutilation. When you defend the indefensible, the immoral, and the evil, you get that what you deserve, the cognitive dissonance that follows. Your only remaining tactic is to swing in circles blaming me because you feel so bad about yourself.

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Tim Daneliuk snipped-for-privacy@tundraware.com
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Oh, excuse me. If you say it, then it must be immoral. Kind of like your second amendment eh? You know, the one that protects the right to keep and bear arms. But, that wouldn't be immoral would it, shooting some hapless government employee come to tax you further for healthcare? How many guns do you have Tim? You cry so much about the collectivists lining up to take your money that I'm betting cower in fear at night with a gun beside you.
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Upscale wrote:

I'm not the only one who says so, nor am I the first. Pretty much everyone I know (except you evidently) thinks that stealing is wrong, even if they have no particularly deep religious practice.

The "Rights" enshrined in the US Constitution are understood to be "natural rights" - the government is not *granting* them, but rather affirming them. In the case of the 2nd Amendment, the actual right being affirmed is that right to self-defense and defense of property.

It would be immoral to initiate violent force in the absence of a similar level of threat.

I never cower in fear. I have never had to use a weapon or even my fists in violence. That's because I behave in a civil manner and the respect the property and person of the people around me. In particular, I do not try to steal from them in the name of my self-anointed charity by assuming that I know better than them what they should do with their lives and property. You should try this some time. You end up get along with people much better that way.
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Guess you don't know too many people. You're shunned by most who know you and you're a sanctimonious hypocrite at the same time. Must be a tough life for you, eh Tim? I don't feel sorry for you though, because you've earned the isolation you know.

Riiiiigggghhhhttttt!!!!! But of course, healthcare isn't a natural right. You are so clueless as to what's right and what's not that you wouldn't know it if it bit you in the ass. With you, it's all about what you can get and keep. Naturally, owning firearms bolsters that need you struggle to fulfill.
The really sad part out of all of this is that you're a pretty smart guy, but your values are so screwed up that you appear to be relatively stupid to all that know you. Quite the contradiction. Life has been tough on you hasn't it? Dirt poor family, worked for everything you have.
You really want to make money and succeed Tim? Go open your own manure farm. With all the bullshit you sling, you'll be filthy rich in no time at all. :)
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Upscale wrote:

I think you've your eloquence here entirely befits your worldview...
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Really? And next you're going to claim that your family didn't help you out at all with your education. They didn't contribute one cent, they didn't give you food and shelter. You left home at the tender age of fifteen and never received any sort of help from them after that.
Then you attended college. You paid ALL the tuition out of your own pocket. You never received any sort of subsidy or student loan while you were in college.
You earned every bit if it? BULLSHIT! YOU WERE SUPPORTED ALL THE WAY BY THAT COLLECTIVIST SYSTEM YOU'RE NOW CRITICISING.
And by the way, exactly what kind of education was it? A number of times you've been unable to differentiate between "your" and "you're). Whatever king of education, apparently you scored in the lower percentile.
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Upscale wrote:

I already stipulated that my family was part of my success - and that this was gift, not by my merit. This is not collectivism in any form, it is family. It is not built on ripping off my fellow citizens.

I went to private undergrad and grad school without taking a dime of tax money and without debt. How? I worked multiple jobs in college and got excellent grades thereby earning *private* financial aid. In fact, my undergrad program was so enlightened that the entire school *refused* ANY public/tax money into their school. They (properly) saw it as corrupting of education and their ability to teach as they saw fit.
I did, however, miss the following classes in the aforementioned school, "Why Capitalism Sucks 101", "How To Whine For What You Have Not Earned 201", and "Everyone's A Victim 400".

You are silly assuming that everyone is weak and needs to be "helped" by government. Again - not a single dime of tax money passed through my checkbook at any point in my education. That's what happens when you work hard ...

I was in the upper 5% of the SATs, got a full ride *private* scholarship to undergrad, then went to work for a *private* company that paid a portion of my graduate school on the condition that I maintain excellent grades - I got straight As, and ended up teaching in that same school between Masters and Ph.D. work (the latter I did not finish).
Oh, and I grew up very poor in a single parent family and we NEVER took welfare or public aid ... we *worked*. Oh, and English is my second written/read language. Any more stereotypes you'd like me to demolish before you concede that you have no defensible position here?
Government handouts are for the terminally lazy for the most part. There are a few folks for whom this does not apply - and there is more than enough private charity to help those people out.
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Have you ever for one minute stopped to listen to yourself? By your claims of success solely by your own hands, you are a Mother Teresa, Dalai Lama and Jimmy Carter Jr. combined or a liar of outlandish proportions. I'm finished with this conversation and your self admiration society. It's impossible to reason with such a stunted intellect as you seem to have. You might be smart in some areas, but in regards to your fellow man, you're nothing but a greedy, selfish con artist. I sincerely hope you never find yourself in dire physical health because with your view of life, you'd be emotionally incapable of coping. ===================================== I am happy to voluntarily contribute to causes the help the genuinely underprivileged
My highest ideal is integrity. It is dishonest to steal from one citizen and give it to another, and then try and claim some imaginary moral high ground.
Theft is theft. I do not like the idea of profiting from the misery of other and have - even recently -refused to do so.
You are very wrong. I am happy to help those in need.
I went to private undergrad and grad school without taking a dime of tax money and without debt.
I will not discuss my charitable actions because: a) It's none of your business and b) Talking about it takes all the fun out of doing such things anonymously.
I have worked my bottom off to come from poverty to the middle class ==================================When are you voting yourself into sainthood?
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Upscale wrote:

Still out of ideas I see. I have calmly responded to your personal attack, vulgar language, and hyperbole because nothing flushes out the complete lack of content in arguments like yours more than letting you speak for yourself. Just to help you understand the big concepts here:
1) I made it quite clear that I succeeded by many means, a good part of which were *outside* my own hands. I also expressed my gratitude. Something you did at no point in this debate. Apparently, your fellow citizens *owe* you what you got from them. I'm sure they'd be thrilled to see your deep appreciation for it.
2) I have refused to take your bait and talk about just how much and how I practice charity. It's none of your business now or ever. I do not answer to you in this (or any other) matter and I can't help it if you have such a low opinion of your fellow man that the only way you can imagine good things happening is if you have to steal to get them to happen. Some (most?) of us actually believe that charity is a noble and powerful thing and live our lives accordingly. Oh, and I *never* want to be seen as the equivalent of Jimmy Carter - a man who never met a despotic dictator he didn't love. He is a prima facia example of collectivist political scum.
3) My intellect - however small or large - isn't on trial here. I've not made it a topic of discussion because - again - it is a personal matter that is none of your business. What is on trial is your inability to argue your position without personal attack - a sure sign you cannot defend your ideas with reason and logic. If it makes you feel better ... nobody can ... they're really bad ideas.
4) Does is strike you as even slightly incongruous that you - the self-proclaimed defender of mankind, the downtrodden, and protector of all that is human - is wishing disease upon me?
Like I said, Game-Set-Match - you have lousy ideas, can't defend them, and are personally rude. In short, you are the perfect collectivist...

I'm not sufficiently self-loathing and personally inadequate to require that much approval from others. Your mileage may vary.
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Read again. As usual, one of your biggest problems is that you read what you want to see, not what's actually written. You're so caught up in yourself that you're incapable of seeing anything but your own words.

Of course not. You're your own self indulgent cheering section that believes your own lies. It's called self delusion Tim and you're a master at it.
'nite.
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"Tim Daneliuk" wrote:

Haven't you people figured out how to use the "block sender" feature to simplify the house keeping function?
Gets to be a little much to still have to ignore this guy after blocking him.
Lew
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Michael Johnson (a well established musician) and I were driving down the road and he was sharing the joy he was experiencing in life after having come face-to-face with both the monsters of alcoholism (and music industry executives <G>). He said something to me that day that I have carried with me for those last 20 years. He said: "Robbie, an alcoholic is a megalomaniac with an inferiority complex."
When I read Tim Daneliuk's posts, I am somehow reminded of that. I detect an insecurity wrapped up in blankets of highly skilled verbosity, a serious indication of over-achievement and a deep desire to be loved. Tim feels the constant need to prove something, regardless of its validity. But, as an independent observer and level- headed 'collectivist' (a word which bears much hate, usually used by previous iron-curtain survivors ) I recommend we all give Tim a group hug.
r
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Robatoy wrote:

Awwwwwwwwwwww ... will I catch anything communicable?
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Tim Daneliuk wrote:

Not from me, and not because I wouldn't participate. <G>
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B A R R Y wrote:

I only ask because I cannot count on Nationalized Healthcare to save me from myself (and you people)...
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snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net says...

Classic Lew, when confronted with an argument he cannot defend; stick fingers in ears, hum loudly.

Yep, that's Lew.
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Keith

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Classic Keith. Express disdain and contempt for anyone who disagrees.
scott
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