O/T: What's Next?

[Robatoy]

There should be war-crime trials.

[Mike Marlow]

Do you correspond intelligently? Just what in the hell is that supposed to mean? Other than yet another failed attempt by you to throw a jab. You are proving yourself to be unworthy of any intelligent form of conversation. Content yourself with simply throwing out meaningless insults. You can converse with yourself.

[Morris Dovey]

[1] I think the only people who could have failed to predict it are those who believed that the housing "bubble" would continue indefinitely.

In Des Moines, an average person earns 30-40K. The average price of a new home here passed the quarter-million mark a year or two ago, and homes were sold as quickly as banks could process mortgage applications.

[2] The legislature recognized that lenders had become too greedy and that credit card debt had become a serious problem for many cardholders. It was interesting to note that in the course of the congressional hearings, it was the lenders' predatory practices that were identified as the most significant part of the problem. [3] Under pressure from lobbyists representing lenders who recognized that borrowers were over-extending, the legislature tightened up the bankruptcy laws to protect the lenders - a clear departure from the principle that bankruptcy laws were to protect honest debtors. [4] With the bankruptcy legislation in place, lenders exercised their options to raise rates on ARM's - and foreclosure rates skyrocketed. Unfortunately for the lenders, they had made mortages for homes whose actual values were considerably less than the amount of the loan and, following foreclosure, could not recover the principal by selling the property in a rapidly disintegrating market.

IMO, any one (and certainly all) of these things was sufficient to make a crystal ball unnecessary. YMMV.

[Mike Marlow]

Excellent points one and all. But - while they are all true, they only point out the fundamental greed of the system and they only pessimistically predict the future. What those points don't do though is explain the suddenness of Lehman, AIG, Morgan, etc. That's what took everybody by surprise. One would not have to agree with the prevailing practices to feel more secure in the economy, up until Wall Street took a dive. That suddenness is what I was making reference to in my statement.

[Han]

"Mike Marlow" wrote in news:44c27$48d4c870$6215a85a$ [e-mail]:

All true, IMNSHO, both Morris and Mike. And I agree (unfortunately) wth McPain that it is due to excessive greed of the bankers - which is what regulators and legislators should protect the "common" man from. Now, caveat emptor should go both ways - the unscrupulous bankers and the stupid borrowers should be punished, but in a way that leaves the rest of US (pun intended) protected. If I have been prudently spending and borrowing within my means, why should I have to bail out the aforementioned unscrupulous bankers and the stupid borrowers?

And to protect the future, more regulation, including more openness with short sellers, is absolutely required.

[Han]

Robatoy wrote in news:a460ee1e-e24e-4d3f-b0db- [e-mail]:

No, retroactive taxation on war profiteering is better. And that should include taxation to pay for the future care of the war victims on all sides (both physical and mental trauma).

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Mike, you say that as if it is a bad thing. I've always wanted to own my own insurance company and now I do. I'm going to get interest on my money, of course so that makes it a great investment. The interest will assure that I have a comfortable retirement when the checks start rolling in. We're now eligible for the "Friends and Family Discount" on al AIG policies too.

With the added interest income, maybe I'll buy General Motors. As an owner, we all get company cars. Are you in?

[Robatoy]

Retribution AND punishment.

[Swingman]

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote

And since I have no credit card debt - zero, zip, nada, none, I should go out and get me a boatload while I can so it can be forgiven.

... and speaking of boatloads, there's that bass boat I've always wanted, and it's only $32,000 .... used!

I'm in!

[Han]

Robatoy wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Monetary retribution and physical punishment, preferably.

(I had to manually fix the quotation indentations, don't know why)

[Morris Dovey]

Greed was only the motivation. What the greed produced was an unstable structure without real support, like a house of cards. When it fails, it doesn't fail slowly, one element at a time, but in an accelerating cascade of failures. The suddenness shouldn't be a surprise.

It's worth noting that while Congress was aware of the mess all along the way, it chose to not act to promote the interests of ordinary citizens in a disturbingly bipartisan fashion.

[Robatoy]

At a limit of say, 32 x 3 lb bass times 10 years.. lemme see... that's about $ 30 per pound of bass. Not including fuel, magaritas and maintenance.

That's okay. I paid $ 600 per duck on a trip once.

[Elrond Hubbard]

Happiness can never be mine now, having proven my unworthiness. I come to rec.woodworking for a bit of repartee and to poke fun at the most egregious bits of silliness that I come across, your "altering course" comment falling squarely into that category. If I want deadly earnest discussions of important issues, I can find that at home or with friends - yakking into my laptop is an ephemeral source of amusement at best.

Sorry if I hit a nerve.

[Tim Daneliuk]

1) Have the government spend money it does not have for decades because people have a "right" to ...(healthcare, retirement, cheap drugs, a house, a BMW, midnight basketball, education ...). 2) When the looming debt - the overwhelming majority of which is the consequences of government social spending - comes back to haunt us, set fiscal policy to ensure a weak dollar - thereby paying off old debt with now very weak dollars. 3) When the credit markets then go illiquid (because the money is phony), blame Wall St., the Republicans, pretty much anyone *except* the big government fools who are actually responsible (aka "progressives", "liberals", "compassionate conservatives", "social democrats" and other peddlers of economic fairy tales). 4) Do not allow the markets to correct for this economic house of cards. Use it as an excuse to further Federalize US business and its people. 5) Blame Bush, McCain, fiscal conservatives/libertarians, and their ilk in a massive act of misdirection while the US slips much more deeply into the collectivist sewer, possibly to be overseen by the arch Leninist, Comrade Obama.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk [e-mail] PGP Key:

[Rod Jacobson]

I can understand how clue less TV talking heads can't grasp simple concepts but isn't the general public at least supposed to think on occasion? The country has a 6.1 % unemployment rate (historically never considered high or particularly significant). The mortgage industry has a approx. 6.2% default rate that is 3X higher than probably desired but well under the 40% rate of the 30's. The country has a well trained and educated work force. A infrastructure of roads, rail and air that allow relatively cheap and abundant transport. A farm and food production capacity dwarfing any historical norm. A college and university system that attracts the best and brightest from around the world. We have millions clamoring both legally and otherwise to get into the country. Please explain for us less mentally endowed how a temporary Wall street big paper shuffling debt problem trumps all of the real physical properties that actually make this a great and the most productive country in the world. In fact if the country in both the business and private sector could learn that credit should be used with serious discretion and that indeed you should pay cash whenever possible, long term we'll be much better off.......The easy credit and borrow mentality is really a fairly recent development (20-30yrs).....Rod

[Tim Daneliuk]

Uh ... you are going to confuse the Bush-haters and assorted other effluvium from the left with all those facts and numbers. See, you don't learn math when doing ritual tribal dances to get your political viewpoint clarified. The stock market is not the economy, this too shall pass, and - as you point out - we are not remotely in Depression era trouble. However, Comrade Obama and his fellow Marxists *are* in political trouble. They need to manufacture and emergency to have a hope of being elected.

[Han]

Tim Daneliuk wrote in news: [e-mail]:

The manufactured emergency is produced by greed and an ability of Madison Avenue to entice people who are not credit-worthy to go into debt over (far over) their heads. Plus incompetents who sell Ponzi schemes of insurance on that exorbitant debt. It is a defect of laissez-faire and utter lack of regulation, as well expressed by the short sellers who now want to have their cloak of deception back now short selling has to be publicized unless totally forbidden. Finally the despicpublicans realize that unfettered financial deception has led us to the brink of financial disaster as a country, not just a few individuals and corporations, because of the domino effect and the ability of short sellers to trash big and small companies. My Lehman stock is still on the books, but practically worthless of course. The Us is founded on free exchange of information and free trade where people can take risks without having the wool pulled over their eyes. Indeed I have never voted Republican, but that doesn't mean that fisccal responsibility is really (REALLY) my first concern. Fairness is the only thing that trumps that.

As always, my opinions are just that, opinions, and I respect yours even if I disagree. I admit even to sometimes being wrong, but not this time, !

[Mike Marlow]

Have you been listening in to the conversations in my neck of the woods? Though it will never happen, the single most common thought in our conversations has been that of holding the decision makers in these events personally responsible. Financially responsible. And not just in light of this debacle - this type of house of cards problem persists throughout corporate America as CEO's play fast and loose in the name of creating the appearance of profit and health. They leave - they take their golden parachutes or their bonus package and the mess is left behind. No matter - they're off with their wealth. I'm every bit a capitalist, and I do not begrudge anyone wealth - even excess wealth, but I do have a big problem with the ill gotten gains of deceit.

[Mike Marlow]

Yeahbut you don't understand the real problem here Edwin. Leave it to the government to do a deal... So here we are, now part owners in our own insurance/finance company. Could be good - we should be expecting those nice big bonuses pretty soon, don't you think? I mean - just give it a short time to get things right, and then we should be able to expect those. But - like I said leave it to the government to screw up a deal. Just about the time the company is healthy enough to start paying us those sweet bonuses, we have to give the damned thing back.

[Han]

"Mike Marlow" wrote in news:c545a$48d63191$6215a85a$ [e-mail]:

EXACTLY!

But then there are the lobbyists ... I'll do you one good, but see, there is this terrible provision ... Or, it would be so much better if (there was a road to nowhere) ...