O/T: Warm Enough

[Han]

Leon wrote in news:r8ednX-Wy9HrfW [e-mail]:

I bet you could see the reduction in ice.

[Leon]

I bet you can see that Antarctica and grown significantly more that the loss of ice of all other areas combined.

[Larry Jaques]

There is no reduction in ice. There is a reapportioning of ice. When it leaves one place, it finds another home. When one area warms, another cools to even things out. It's what Mother Nature does.

-- Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -- John Wayne

[krw]

Fires *were* the forest management. Some species of trees (feeble attempt at bringing the discussion on topic ;) require fires to propagate.

[tiredofspam]

One could only hope that it happens to you, that a gas company puts a well near your home, and you find out first hand.

That would be the only way you'd believe.

I'm done with this thread. I guess I started it, but some of you have really way out thinking, that it's all fabrication everywhere. You believe the companies first where I don't trust the companies.

I guess you didn't watch any of the investigative reporting on some of these fracking issues. Yea sure there are gas tanks attached to peoples water. It's called the ground water and fracking.

Colorado was the study location. And the problem was clearly documented, including how far the problem had spread. Previous water tests were looked at, and of course the drilling companies said it must be something else.

Colorado has seperate mineral rights from land rights. So the people have no control. And wherever they are drilling the water gets polluted and contaminated. And eventually the problem spreads out much farther.

But you're right, and I'm wrong.

I can't prove anything to any of you. So I'm done with these arguments. I only hope you learn firsthand. Then you'll be enlightened.

[Swingman]

Well, you are most definitely suspect in your condemning an entire industry (an industry which has brought you the building blocks of most of the modern conveniences of life since the late 1800's) based on your above blanket belief/sentiment.

[Han]

Swingman wrote in news:I6OdnU6JtKn2jm7SnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

Just limiting my discussion to fracking. By itself, the process should be just fine. It's the unintended parts that are the problem. It is without doubt that this type of mining can generate small earthquakes. Thus it is entirely possible that at some point a path is generated by which the gas that is the aim of the drilling also gets into groundwater or aquifers rather far above the intended mining area. On top of that, there is the pollution generated by the waste water and waste chemicals that are now most often just dumped in situ or trucked away and dumped in the nearest legal area. All legal pollution that isn't helping anyone. Add to that probems with insufficient sealing of the drill holes, and the disturbances of the neighbors.

I'm all in favor of getting the gas, but there needs to be far more control over the consequences. It may indeed be proven that the water coming from the faucet isn't flammable from the gas the drillers went for, but ther is gas there now, where it wasn't before. Etc, etc.

[Larry Blanchard]

OK, we've beaten this to death with facts, suppositions, and worse. How about a new direction.

Forget global warming. Whether or not it exists and if it does how much we contribute to it. Take a look at what else our pollution has caused.

Acid rain:

ocean acidification:

don't think there's much controversy over the fact that our carbon emissions are causing these. Even disregarding global warming, the effects of these would seem sufficient reason to curb air pollution.

What reminded me of this was an article in this mornings paper about the failure of oysters to breed in Pacific Northwest waters due to increased acidity. See:

I await the inevitable "it's not our fault" chorus from the usual suspects :-).

[Larry Blanchard]

Correct. Although I might say "the" instead of "a". Unless you live in an Irish hut with a peat fire :-).

[Leon]

Natural management!

[Swingman]

I'm not a geologist, but I was raised by one (who was intent on teaching me continually about the exploration end of the business from day one), grew up in the oil and gas "bidness", and have hired a few in a past life. I agree about the potential for frac'ing, particularly in some formations, causing problems.

I also think that corporate misbehavior, particularly of the criminal kind, like yesterday's announced GlaxoSmithKline settlement, should be punished by prison time for those personnel in the corporate hierarchy who both authorized it and/or looked the other way.

I spent two tours in the Army as the Commanding Officer of a military unit, one in a combat zone. In each case it was _I_ who was ultimately responsible for everything that happened in that command during my tenure.

Had there been criminal activity of which I had even a suspicion, there is NO doubt that I would have been held accountable and paid the price in military prison.

I expect our congress, and legal system, to hold corporate involvement in criminal activity, regardless of the industry, to that same standard ... unfortunately the lobbyist, lawyers and legal system work to insure that will never be so.

Another cause for disillusionment, as age and somewhat more wisdom set in ...

[Larry Jaques]

The EPA and NOAA, bastions of fair and balanced judgement. Just ask Algore.

-- Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -- John Wayne

[-MIKE-]

CO2 is hardly "pollution."

That's the other trumpet call of alarmists... labeling CO2 as pollution and thus tying it in with real, damaging pollution. This is much like the race card. It takes attention away from the real problems that do exist and make everyone skeptical of the honest, trustworthy people trying to raise awareness to those real problem.

[Swingman]

+1

[Doug Miller]

Larry Blanchard wrote in news:jsv6cb$v1o$ [e-mail]:

Actually, the principal culprit in acid rain is sulfur emissions, not carbon dioxide. And that is indeed a "sufficient reason to curb air pollution" -- as coal-fired power plants have been doing for a few decades now.

CO2 dissolved in water is only a very weak acid; SO2 and SO3, on the other hand, make very strong acids.

[Dave]

+1 as much as you want. Just like someone saying that there's no proof that CO2 is not causing problems, the reverse can also be true. It may be causing immense problems, just that nature has so far been able to handle it.

If or when it is realized that nature is not able to handle it anymore, better damned well hope that it's not too late for humanity to do something about it.

[krw]

Then it's not an immense problem, by definition. Moreover, you have no proof that more is bad. In fact, higher temperatures are for the most part, good. Plants and animals like warm. Ice ages aren't a time for parties.

...and you say Gaia isn't a religion.

[Swingman]

Then arguably it is not a problem, is it? :)

That notwithstanding, and I'll certainly give you the benefit of the doubt in that very specific regard, the part of MIKE's post that deserves a +1, which you may have missed, is that the real danger/consequence is one of misguided, "chicken little" misdirection on the part of those with a political agenda.

[Jim Weisgram]

[...snip...]

I was referring to the fires in Colorado

Right. The suppression of natural fires was the mismanagement I was talking about.

[Han]

Swingman wrote in news:eMydncBVLsKNuW7SnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

I spent some vacation time on the same trip as a member of the unit that investigated the Massey mine disaster

I asked point blank whether the higher ups in the mining company were responsible. And he said Oh yes, they were, but it is all about plausible deniability, they are too insulated by lawyers etc. Now the company that bought Massey did get saddled with much more liability than they had counted on ...

And yes, I think that higher ups in companies like SKF, Barclays, JP Morgan, &tc, &tc should spent some time in the klink.