O/T: Up Yours

Page 5 of 11  
On May 18, 12:13 am, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Yes really. Thermodynamics and molecular spectroscopy provides that scientific basis, not meteorlogical or geological records.
The greenhouse effect is on a sound theoretical footing. Climate change is not.
You are confusing causality with correlation--So does Al Gore.

The are neither good, nor bad. Although without a greenhouse effect the Earth would be frozen solid. That is very easy to demonstrate *scientifically*.

There is no question that increasing greenhouse gases in the atmosphere drives temperatures up. There is also no question that there are many other factors.

Of course he didn't say it was. He was pointing out that what is a small change in the purely physical sense is important to us.
But of course you knew that.
--
FF



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Missed the part about temperature increase *preceding* elevated CO2 levels, I see.

We agree on one thing: Gore certainly confuses the two. However, I understand the difference quite clearly. Perhaps you should back up and re-read what I wrote. I was *objecting* to the claim that "CO2 [is] causing our planet to heat up" by pointing out that ice core data shows that the heating comes *before* the elevated CO2 levels, thus showing that there is *not* a cause-and-effect relationship between the two, or at any rate, any such relationship that may exist is certainly not the one claimed.
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On May 18, 10:59 am, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

No. I see you missed the part about correlation not implying causality.

Again, ice core data address correlation, not causality. How about if we look at the data from Mars that show a temperature increase over the least 6 or 7 years, during which time solar irradiation dropped. Does that show a causal relationship between irradiation and temperature such that increased irradiation causes temperature to drop?
I don't think so.
--
FF




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Fred, you really should cultivate the habit of reading posts before you reply to them. You'll make so much more sense that way.
*I* did not claim *any* causality of *anything*. Han claimed that increasing CO2 levels cause increasing temperature. I said there is *not* a causal relationship there, as evidenced by the ice cores that show increasing temperature *preceding* increased CO2 levels. I made no claim whatever to a cause-and-effect relationship.

I didn't claim that the ice core data established causality of any sort.
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On May 18, 6:08 pm, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Correct.
He didn't cite the ice core data, he cited basic physics.

You're wrong.

Wrong, you claimed the absence of a causal relationship. That is a claim regarding a cause-and-effect-relationship.
The causal relationship is established by thermodynamics and spectroscopy, both sold science.
You are also wrong if you think the ice core data are inconsistent with that causal relationship.
You are thinking in terms of a single independent variable. Can you separately solve separately for multiple forcing functions acting with the same frequency?

How about basic physics? Do you see how that establishes causality?
How about if we look at the data from Mars that show a temperature increase over the least 6 or 7 years, during which time solar irradiation dropped. Does that show that increased irradiation does NOT cause temperature to rise?
--
FF


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wrote:

It shows that Gore's hot air has made it all the way to Mars.
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I'm going to put this as simply as I can:
"B follows A" does not in any way imply "A caused B".
It *does*, however, mean absolutely that B did NOT cause A.
Now substitute "increasing temperature" for "A", and "increasing CO2 levels" for "B". Do you understand now?
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On May 19, 9:04 pm, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Yes, you base your argument on the false premise that there is only one independent variable at play.
Suppose there are five independent variables. Suppose two of them are changing in a way that drives temperature up and three of them are changing in a way that drives temperature down. If the temperature goes up, or if the temperature goes down, does that prove or disprove anything about how any one of those five variable affects temperature?
Now, back to basic physics, do you understand what it means for a planet to be in thermal equilibrium?
--
FF







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"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote:

Ah yes, the good old General Energy Equation.
Would never have gotton thru all that thermo required of a heat/power major or passed the PE exam without it.
Lew
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No, I base my argument on the *fact* that effects do not precede causes. Sorry you're having so much trouble grasping that concept.
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On May 20, 6:41 am, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

At most you can infer from the ice core data is that the change in carbon dioxide did not initiate the change in temperature. You cannot use the data to show that a change in carbon dioxide cannot initiate a change in temperature.
We know from basic physics that it can, regardless of whether or not it did. Do you understand that point?
We observe on Mars that the temperature can continue to rise with rising carbon dioxide even after solar irradiation, which is presumed to have initiated the changes on Mars in the 1990s, drops.
--
FF

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Exactly so.

Ever hear of Occam's Razor, Fred?
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On May 20, 5:58 pm, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Yes.
Can you show how a conclusion that temperature changes are independent of carbon dioxide concentrations is consistent with known physics?
--
FF

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logic????
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On May 21, 6:28 am, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

No, nor do I see the relevance regarding possible future temperature changes. Can you explain?
--
FF

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other way around, there's really no point in continuing the discussion.
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On May 21, 6:41 pm, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Perhaps I don;t understand your position at all. Can you explain the relevance regarding the future effect of present increases in Carbon dioxide concentration?
--
FF

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cause-and-effect relationship reversed: increasing CO2 level is the RESULT of increasing temperature, not the CAUSE.
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On May 21, 6:57 pm, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

1) How does increasing temperature cause a rise in the concentration of carbon dioxide.
2) How do you stop carbon dioxide from contributing to the greenhouse effect?
--
FF


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Solubility of a gas in water (e.g. carbon dioxide in the ocean) decreases as temperature increases.

Irrelevant, since increasing CO2 levels are the result of increasing temperatures, not the cause.
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