O/T: The Bail Out

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Are you kidding me? The government is going to limit itself? Pray tell when in history that ever happened.

In someone's post to this thread it was suggested that individual responsibility can be legislated? More government action to legislate individual reponsibility? ROTFLOL.
When there is no handout you only have two choices. Be responsible for you and yours or perish. Most will choose the former.

I think he is referring to individual self sufficiency not trade issues
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It has happened. See the repeal or limitation of income taxes. You or Tim D will just have to set up the constitutional amendments necessary. How else are you going to "return to limited government" as you said we need?

Responsibility alo includes not screwing others. That should be legislated, or are you going on the honor sysem? ROTFLMAO, indeed.

I don't understand. Aren't we all dependent on many functions of government? Defense, trade, transportation, healthcare? Or do you want to be your own doctor?
If you mean that we should earn our way, I agree. However, some people haven't gotten the same chances that others could profit from. For instance, my parents paid for my education, and that (plus a lot of luck) is what got me where my family and I are today. Does that mean that someone who didn't have the luck of having parents (and grandparents etc) like mine should rot away like garbage?
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Han
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Han wrote: <SNIP>

Defense is the only legitimate government function on your list. (Because it is essential to the preservation of liberty.) Trade, transportation and healthcare are properly private sector activities in which the government has no business. (Because none of them are issues of liberty.)

I wasn't born with the physical skills to make $20M per year playing the NBA. Does that mean I should be excluded from being a point guard for the Chicago Bulls? I am too old to make any significant breakthroughs in theoretical physics. Does that mean I should be excluded from a full professorship in the Princeton physics department? I cannot run a marathon in 2 hrs. Does that mean that I can't be on the Olympic long distance team?
In a free society, inequitable circumstances of birth and family are almost entirely eradicated within a generation or two *so long as the individuals in question work very hard to make inter-generational progress*. The purpose of liberty is not to ensure equivalent outcomes for all beneficiaries - this is a fantasy peddled by political vermin like Comrade Obama. The purpose of liberty is to provide an environment where everyone can try their best to succeed without living in fear of fraud, threat, or force.
In a society that promotes individual liberty, the only way people "rot away" is when they don't try very hard. Well, there is one other circumstance: When they are profoundly physically or mentally handicapped. In this latter case, there is more than enough private charity to help. But able bodied/minded people ought to be expected to be responsible for their own economic and social progress and not given the hammer of government to force their neighbors to pay up.
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Didn't limit government. It provided a stronger economy and more tax reciepts for the government to spend. If anything it expanded government.

Don't need amendments, Constitution OK as is. Just abide by it.

The government should provide for my defense from those who would do me harm, both foreign and domestic.

No, I want to choose my doctors.

Well good for you, I don't hold it against you, in fact I'm happy for your good fortune. I didn't have that luxury, had to work my way through, please don't hold that against me. I don't think I'm rotting away like garbage.
Frank
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Han wrote:

Do you really feel that if your parents had not paid for your education you would be rotting away like garbage?
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I am pretty sure that if not for the "luck" I have ad, my circumstances would be different. Consider that admision of lazyness.
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Han
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Too many of us did not receive an education funded by our parents, to accept Han's statement above. The key point that Han seems to have missed out on by receiving the gift that he did, is the merit and the benefits of hard work to achieve one's goals.
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To avoid misunderstandings, I believe I know the pains and rewards of hard work. I fully believe everyone should work to the very best of their abilities, and I have done so, IMHO. I also believe that many have not done so. On the other hand I have seen many try and be frustrated by (fill in your choice - management indifference/prejudice/jealousy, unlucky choices of their own {for which adversity is advised, but trashing?}. So I feel that it is my obligation to help people that are worthy of my help, and where I can indeed help.
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To be fair, I think I'm guilty of a bad choice of words. I was trying to get across the point that many of us had to work our way through our education because we didn't have the benefit of a paid way, and that this didn't hurt our chances to succeed in any way. It isn't whether one benefits from the wealth of a family that determines one's success, it's the drive of the individual.
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Fair enough. In my background, it was deemed that the parents should pay for their kids' education if they can, and that grants, loans, and work should pay when the parents could not. I have perpetuated that for my kids. I really hate to owe interest, so I would rather wait, save and pay than go into hock at the rates that (whoever) charges. That being said, I will use credit for a big purchase like a house (where the interest is relatively low, and deductible), but even for a car, I'd rather pay from savings (or a home equity loan) then owe big interest payments.
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Han wrote:

And is corrupted almost immediately by the mooching sheeple.

But can be strongly "encouraged" by holding people accountable when they harm another person. "Harm" here pretty much always comes in some form of fraud, force, or threat.

I wrote this imprecisely. By "self sufficiency", I don't mean independent of each other or our trading partners. Successful people are always voluntarily interdependent. What I meant was "not dependent on the involuntary confiscations of our fellow citizens' assets".
IOW - Root, Hog, Or Die...
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On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:58:32 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:

And of course Phil Gramm couldn't possibly have had anything to do with it. After all, John McCain relies on his advice. And we all know he wouldn't associate with a crooked politician, would he?
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Larry Blanchard wrote:

You mean like Comrade Obama and his cast of thugs here in IL? (The Mayor, the Governor, two convicted felons - one a 60s mad bomber and the other one Obama's real estate fairy.)
"I'll take liberal hypocrisy for 500 Alex...."
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Jimbo wrote:

I am neither a conservative nor a bigot. I am unapologetically opposed to force, fraud, and threat. I live in IL and have seen Obama for what he is locally. If he is elected it will not be me who is disappointed - I already have very low expectations for both him and McCain - It will be Obama's groupies who will get sold out in acts of political expediency, no different than pretty much everyone else who ever supported the man. I strongly urge people to read the New Yorker article on Obama's rise to power to just get a small taste of what a political bottomfeeder this guy is.
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Jimbo wrote:

Disagree strongly. He is a political snakeoil salesman with no real legislative record and a long history of bad associations, and political double dealing.

No. The private sector will revitalize the economy unless the various flavors of neo-communists in government, the general population, and even the business community insist on collectivizing that which should be private. Politicians do not "fix" economies. They merely damage economies, some more, some less.

You are likely right about his election - very sadly. Then again, a nation that has lived with economic fiction, force, and all that accompanies socialism for some 70 years, doesn't deserve to be all that well off. Obama will get elected and when he leaves office, he will leave a chain of high taxes, nationalized businesses, and a further erosion of the original American ideal of personal liberty.
Viva Obama, Viva Marx
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(snip to)

What private sector? The one that has been totally discredited for bring the US and maybe even the world economy to it's very knees. This is the Regan legacy come home to roost.
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Jimbo wrote:

You are deeply confused. The market and the economy are different entities and the economy is fundamentally sound. It is the market that needs correcting, and so it is. The market will now do - in one very painful and short period - what should have been going on incrementally over the years: correct inefficiencies and bad choices out of existence. Unless, of course, the various communists in government have their way to try and defy Reality by passing more laws and giving away more money they do not actually have.
The Reagan legacy was sold out by the communist liberals and the indifferent vote-grubbing, big spending neo-cons. This is what happens when you do NOT honor free markets and use government to distort markets to try and achieve financial fantasyland. No, this is not a Reagan free market. It is a Marxist fantasy where all problems can be resolved with the wave of the magic wand Comrade Obama and his minions claim to have. They are fools and they are liars.
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What bailout, eh?
Now we get to watch WS throw their little hissy fits for a while, then market forces will take over, for better or worse, and we can get back to things like manufacturing, technology and agricultural and forgo this trading of little bits of paper around as the holy grail of capitalism
Too bad though ... while the House finally got something right, it's a sure bet it will turn out to be for the wrong reasons.
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