O/T: Michael Moore gets it right sometimes.

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Is that how it worked when the land and resources were stolen from The Native Americans? And then killing them because they resisted? Was it a broken world view that caused all that violence?
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Robatoy wrote:

Absolutely. The stealing was wrong in the first place. Their response was predictable in the face of it. Attempting to exterminate them was the evil outcome of an evil starting point. OTOH, it's not as if they Amer-Indians lived in peace amongst themselves prior to arrival of the Europeans. Tribalism and theft have pretty much always added up to violence.
You don't get durably good results from initially bad premises.
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Morris Dovey wrote:

It all depends upon the school. Our Lutheran elementary school charges on the order of $4200 per year, our area Lutheran High School in Phoenix is approximately $6500 per year. The quality of education is high, the teacher student ratio is low and the environment much more conducive to learning.
... snip
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Mark & Juanita wrote:

That sounds good. I think I've heard around $8K for a (not Lutheran) church high school a few blocks from where I live.
Out of curiosity, are the schools completely funded from tuition fees or is there additional funding from other sources?
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Morris Dovey wrote:

In the case of the elementary school, we try to set the tuition to equal the cost of education. As is the case for all non-profits, other donations also help to keep the tuition cost affordable. The high school is also funded by tuition fees and other donations. In both instances, there is no external funding from a higher-level entity if that is what you were asking.
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Mark & Juanita wrote:

I wasn't - I was curious as to whether the tuition represented actual costs as a result of discussion up-thread.
Your input makes me a bit less resistant to Tim's position that education should be privatized (but not enough so that I'm willing to adopt his view without a /lot/ more information).
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Morris Dovey wrote:

And therein lies the problem. We do not get truthful accounting from our fine government agencies about the real costs and expenditures for programs such as education. It's hard to make policy decisions when you cannot fairly compare the options and consequences. Absent a ton of detailed analysis that most of us do not have the time or even the data to do, we don't know what the real cost of public education is. My guess - and that's all it is - is that private education is on par or cheaper, and delivers a better product on average.
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On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:51:28 -0600, Morris Dovey wrote:

Private education in this country consists of high end "exclusive" academies for the rich and schools operated by religious groups. There are few affordable secular private schools.
And private education for a fee is an unaffordable tax on the poor, especially if it remains illegal to not send your kids to school. A tax supported system is the only chance many poor kids have to get a smattering of education, even if the school quality is low.
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Larry Blanchard wrote:

Not even remotely true. There are plenty of people home schooling their children for a fraction of the cost of public- or private schools. And these home schooled children consistently outperform their public schooled counterparts academically when they later attend higher education.
Moreover, I think the real cost of public schools is way, way higher than most people believe. Something like $3000/yr of my property taxes go to the school system. But ... this is far from the whole story. There are state, local, and county sales taxes getting poured into the educational system. Then there are the many Federal taxes that are levied (income, excise, import duties, service fees ...) some portion of which get sent back to the States for education. Then there is the money sent to the educators from State lotteries and other gambling sources. Finally, there are private sector institutions and individuals that donate time, materials, and money to their local schools. If someone could tally this all up, I'd guess that a public school education actually costs more than a private education and - on average - produces a more poorly educated graduate. But, by golly, those public school grads have been well versed in identity politics, tolerance (for everything but traditional Judeo-Christian values), sexual politics, and collectivist political ideology.
A depressing number of Americans are incapable of imagining a world in which government is not their Mommy and Daddy, There is thus little widespread interest in exploring private school options for the masses.

There are many implicit and wrong assumptions in this paragraph:
1) You assume that - in the face of a more rational tax system - there would not be sufficient charity to educate those in genuine need. I might point out that my undergrad program paid *100%* of *every* student's tuition once they were accepted to study there. It was and is a parochial program paid for by the alumni (as opposed to paying for, say, a football stadium). So, yes, Virginia, it is possible to have education paid for entirely in the private sector.
2) You assume that tax supported immediately leads to public schools. Vouchers are one compromise way to improve what we have today considerably by putting the parents in the position to have real school choice. You get both tax support and a strong imperative to move to private education and/or massively improve public schools. These are opposed notably by the NEA because the teachers' union does not want their constituency to be meaningfully held accountable for their work product.
3) You can't fix education without fixing the lousy parenting that dominates the culture. This lousy parenting transcends demography and geography. It isn't just inner city ghetto dwellers ignoring the education of their children, its the lily white suburbanites as well. Where children have become an income stream to the putative poor, they've become a fashion accessory to the affluent. It's kind of hard to educate a child when their own parents aren't paying attention. "Tax support" does not fix this in any way. In fact, it is "tax support" that created the "children as an revenue stream" problem in the first place.
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Yet the school board just wants more money to fix all those problems. If you don't agree that you should pay more, you are against children and un-American. Our school system needs major overhaul and the schools need discipline and the students need parents that care. We pay the most per student, but we are ranked #10 in education.
In China the school year is 220 days. In India, there are more honor students than the USA has students
No matter how hard you wave the flag, there will come a time that the US Is no longer the most powerful country in the world.
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

NO matter the numbers in foreign countries, they still come to the USA to fine quality living.
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Today. Get back to me in 25 to 50 years.
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

If you can assure me that I will be here in 50 years I will.
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wrote:

For how long?
You are still living in the past, my friend. You seem to think that what the mighty USA once stood for cannot be superceded from either the outside or from within.
I do hope that you will get it together and find yourselves again, but for now, you're getting walked on by the competition. That kind of onslaught has momentum. It will take years to stave off the waves before your efforts will once gain (and I hope) make you leaders of the free world. You really have no idea the damage that last administration has done to your once great country. No idea at all. And then to think that Obama will somehow rescue you, is folly. Either one of two things will happen: The Obama camp will motivate the American public to do with less and start a recovery or You've been had by an imposter who is really no different than any other blood-sucking overlord.
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Robatoy wrote:

My wife's best friend and her husband are from Indian. My wife's friend's brother is a General in the Army in India. Her husband had to come to the US to get a job. All slots for his cast were filled back home.
As to the great damage that the last administration has done to the US, well they are back for a second chance. Or do you mean the present administration? Please tell me if you can.
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Larry Blanchard wrote:

Not getting what you mean by "unaffordable tax", how is somebody else paying for something a "tax" on the poor?

How about giving those poor people an opportunity to choose the school to which their children go? Voucher systems would make private education affordable and make the public system get its act together.
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Mark & Juanita wrote:

As a Lutheran institution, I would expect your funding is controlled by the very *highest* level entity ;)
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Tim Daneliuk wrote:

LOL; we certainly think so, and are convinced seeing how things always work out for the best.
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On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 07:01:45 -0600, Morris Dovey wrote:

<snip>
Back when I was designing/writing SCADA software, I always tried to think about possible future requirements due to external changes. I've had customers comment years later that they went to modify something and found the hooks for the modification were already there. Nothing like a delayed pat on the back :-).
I'm so obsolete now I'd have trouble programming "Hello, world" :-).
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