...I wonder if there's a study out there regarding gradations of
murder. What percentage of inmates on death row are there because
they, *without a doubt* murdered another human being; THEY are the
ones who don't deserve to breathe our air for even 5 minutes after
...yup! Me too. Lots of good books, I'd be happy...
They need to bring him down here to Texas for the trial. After the
Enron and other scandals, we might get the death penalty for his sorry
No kidding, "what's his name" head fool of Enron sure did not do well
after being sentensed to prison. I suspect that his ways would not have
gone well for him with his new neighbors in prison.
He sure deserves it. How does one man even control 50 billion dollars
by himself? I read a lot about this, and apparently he has had this
under his hat as his own little project for almost 40 years.
I'll bet if the market had held, he would still be going strong.
Sounds to me like it's time to fire up old Sparky.
Why waste the electricity, rope, or bullet. Just turn him loose in the
general prison population and not in a country club facility.
If unions go down you can count on 10$ an hour as a high wage for the
middle class as the greedy 5% scoop up all the easy cash.
It has happened in the forest industry. they broke the unions by contracting
out. Now the company takes bids for the work and contractors lowball each
other so much, they end up going bankrupt and not paying there workers. The
company still gets the same money for the logged area as the logs are sold
through them. I like the Chinese but if you think some Chinese company isn't
going to lowball you to get your job,good luck to you.GM has plans for a big
plant in Russia, is it with bailout money? Bankers just took us for 850 000
000 000 if not more and no regulation and you think they have your interests
in mind? They have transferred all the cash from public to private hands now
they are transferring private dept to the public.I can think of nothing
since Regan that has been done by the neo-conservative powers that control
the republican party that has helped the middle class.The republican party
isn't conservative anymore they are just greedy and power hungry praying on
I would sure like to see if that turns out to be ture or not.
If it turns out to be true, the unions will be back but for now the unions
are a big part of the problem. I't probably not a bad thing to get paid for
your actual worth.
How are unions the problem? Gm I believe has some of the best productivity
levels in the auto industry.It's about a liveable wage ,you can always find
someone to do it cheaper. If that ceo that ran GM into the ground is worth
15 million a year. I'm sure you or I could run GM into the bankruptcy for
You are conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room. GM
productivity is high because of very high levels of automation,
not because the union 'workers' are working harder. Moreover,
GM is stuck paying ridiculous benefits that no other working
group in America enjoys. Among these are - for some classes
of UAW members - being paid full salary and benefits forever
after being laid off. This is not a living wage, it is
insanity. More to the point, some bolt tightener in a factory
isn't worth something in the area of $80/hr (depending whose
numbers are accurate) when you take into account base and
I've seen more than one company ruined by union greed.
Fortunately, this time, the UAW has their fellow Communists
running the congress and will likely get a "UAW Bailout" bill
passed in some form with minimal concessions on their part.
Instead of just running the companies into the ground, the UAW
will simply waddle up to the public trough like all the other
pigs and demand the rest of us maintain their quality of life.
The problem is, with all the swine at the trough, just who is
going to be left to actually produce new wealth so the old, lazy
pigs (the execs, the unions, the financial companies, the
individuals in excessive debt ...) can continue to eat for
P.S. The CEO didn't run GM into the ground, the UAW did. The
CEO just didn't do his job and the tell the union to go
scratch. The best part of all this may be that these
jobs will be lost forever and end up in China or
Indonesia. I'd love to see the UAW idiots take on the
Tim Daneliuk firstname.lastname@example.org
Tim where do you get 80$ an hour out your ass like FUX news get real with
the facts.We are all losing our jobs to China or other 3rd world
countries.The only reason auto works jobs have lasted this long is the
unions and I see these jobs as gone now to. Instead of bitching about the
guy with the good job why don't you fight for good jobs and wages.Nah you
want cheap china goods .Maybe we will meet on day fighting for that greeter
job at Wal-Mart.
Rusty, Rusty, Rusty. The presence of unions have make it possible for
foreign car manufacturers to be able to afford to come "here" and build cars
more profitably. And yes a majority of that money stays here and helps to
fuel our economy. If the Big 3 could be more competitive they would not be
in the situation that they are in. Because of the unions, foreign car
manufacturers have come here, built manufacturing plants, and are kicking
the Big 3's butts.
The reason that some are loosing jobs to China is because the cost to
manufacture here is too high. The expense does not justify the quality
Instead of bitching about loosing your job, accept what your work is really
worth or do something to better your self with out relying on the government
or union to make up for your inability to compete.
I don't know the exact dollar amount, but it's in that range. UAW
unskilled labor is arount $28/hr or so. Skilled labor is up to $40/hr
or so from what I've been able to find. Now, add to that another 20%
or so for the employer's portion of the taxes (medicare, unemployment
premiums, and so forth). BUT, that does not include their *benefits*.
Things like healthcare drive this number way, way up - *especially*
for a UAW shop because they are funding the "legacy" benefits for the
unrighteous deals the union cut in the past - like paying people full
salary and benefits who are not working at all. Is the real number
$80/hr? I don't know, maybe it's only $70/hr all in. But $70/hr full
burdened cost for an employee works out to be about $140K/yr per
employee - that's more than a lot of experienced engineers,
scientists, and even some doctors make - people who have years
invested in acquiring rare and specialized skills. It is insane that
an essentially unskilled labor pool (for the most part - there are
skilled trades in the UAW as well) should command this kind of money
in the face of their company failing. They now want us - the taxpayers
- to bail *them* out. I do not feel like subsidizing Joe The Bolt
Turner. His family is not more important than mine. Joe needs to
get real about just what salary his job realistically can command.
And that's the same reason these jobs are about to disappear - they
are priced irrationally.
I fight for good jobs and wages by fighting to keep the government small,
taxes smaller, and everyone accountable for their own actions.
That, and there are not Cheap Plastic Dog Vomit factories left in
the US ;)
I agree, but accountability for one's self is doomed - the last election
proved this. The mooching masses elected someone to give them "free"
stuff that other people have to pay for.
Tim Daneliuk email@example.com
In the management world, that's a "loaded" rate.
It includes cash pay, benefits (insurances, vacations, pension
contribution, 401(k) matching funds, product discounts), taxes (SSI,
Worker's Comp, etc...), supervision percentage, tools, your parking
The reason why it includes supervision is that if you eliminated one
supervisor's worth of worker's, you eliminate the supervisor. Say your
company averages a 15-1 worker to supervisor ratio... Each worker
position gets 1/15th of a supervisor's LOADED rated charged to the
position. It dominoes up the line.
The loaded rate is the number it costs the company to employ you. This
is the number that you have to add more value to the company, in order
for you to make a positive contribution to the bottom line. If you
don't you're a liability.
Many companies do a terrible job of explaining total compensation to
rank and file employees.
A liveable wage doing a job that most "anyone can do"??? One does not need
to have a college education to put parts on a car in an assembly line, empty
trash cans or what else the workers do. I am sure a majority of the workers
could be hard workers but this is not a profession that is in great demand.
Their shoes could easily be filled by some one fresh out of HS.
The Unions are a problem because GM spends 90% of its profit on each vehicle
on legacy benefit programs for employees that are retired. Where else can
you be layed off from a job and expect to receive a salery between 75-90% of
the full salary for 2 years.
If that ceo that ran GM into the ground is worth
Absolutely and with out a doubt if you pulled 50 college educated people
off the street at least a few of them could do a better job.
Right, because unions are a magic potion that create wealth out of
thin air. The laws of economics are superseded by the demands of
the unions. As long as the union is there, there will always be
lots of wealth and productivity. Right.
Tim Daneliuk firstname.lastname@example.org
Why not? Surely all you have to do is apply for a job for which you're
qualified, pay the fee to join the union, then do the work and make your
dues payments on time - right? Seems perfectly straight-forward to me. :)
That's the way it played for me when I got out of the army and went to
work for the C&EI Railroad as an accountant (except that I didn't know
anything about either railroads or accounting) - I just wanted a job and
told 'em that I'd learn whatever I needed and whatever job they put me
on, I'd do it well until school started in the fall. I bought the
mandatory union card and paid my dues - and ended up with a big pile of
cardboard boxes full of paperwork on TOFC (later called "piggyback")
shipments that had (variously) never been billed or billed but never
paid. The problem was that TOFC was new and attempts to process the
billings had run into the "Not My Job" wall. It became /my/ job. The
best guess was that there was about $10,000,000 in receivables lurking
in the boxes, and that I would probably do well to collect half of that.
A month later, I had the process down fairly well, and made my second
monthly dues payment. I'd managed to recover just under $2,000,000 and
felt pretty good about myself, the job I had, and life in general. In
true cornball fashion, I even found myself singing "I been workin' on
the railroad" on the way home one payday. :)
It was about halfway through the second month that the shop steward
stopped by my desk and invited me to join the group for the 10am coffee
break in the cafeteria - and I told him "No thanks, I've some work I'm
trying to get finished up before lunch."
Big mistake - but I had no way of knowing just how big it was, or even
that it was a mistake. He left to go drink coffee and I went back to work.
About a week later I was called into the VP Operation's office and asked
to close the door. He told me that the union had presented two choices -
either Dovey is in the cafeteria for both morning and afternoon coffee
breaks or the /entire/ railroad would cease functioning. Period. I
apologized for causing a problem and assured him that I'd be in the
cafeteria for all future coffee breaks.
And so I was - but I took whatever I was working on and a yellow pad
with me. Sometimes I even drank a cup of coffee as I made notes.
I don't think that was actually the end of the matter because at the end
of that second month there was a posting on the bulletin board for a
"TOFC Accounting Manager" job opening. Apparently the union contract
specified that no one could be hired for any job unless it was first
posted so that existing employees could ask to be considered - and a
couple of the gals in accounting told me that I should write a letter
asking for the job. I did - and became a department manager. As a
management person, I didn't need to continue my union membership (and
didn't) and could take coffee breaks whenever I wanted (and didn't). It
didn't particularly bother me that I was the only person in my
department. It wasn't difficult to tell that the shop steward felt
In September I asked for an exit interview with the VP I'd talked to
earlier, and was able to tell him (as if he hadn't already known) that
I'd gotten through the original pile and recovered more than $12 million
of the estimated 10, that all TOFC accounts were current, and that I'd
put together a manual containing all the contact information for all of
the customers with notes about what approaches worked best with which
When I suggested that he make everyone managers of one-person
departments, he just smiled and wished me well in school.
In spite of my experiences, a union /can/ be a positive influence in a
workplace to ensure (or at least advocate for) fairness and justice. My
experience is limited, but I think plant unions are better suited to
work /with/ management than are trade unions.
I would suggest to Rusty that a close look at both employer /and/ union
I've seen unions shops that worked well in small manufacturing settings
(say, under 100 employees). I've never seen a union setting that was
effective or worthwhile at large scale. I have no objection in principle
to organized labor, only that companies ought not to be forced to bargain
with them if they choose not to.
For the record, I watched a large ($6 billion) company I once worked for -
and that I really loved as an employer and place to work - get completely
sabotaged by their unions. These unions then took the company over
themselves and howled like stuck pigs when they ran the company into
the ground and the pensions they'd pledged to buy the company were
then worthless. I think this is not atypical of very large company
Tim Daneliuk email@example.com
I haven't paid attention enough to generalize - but I watched RCA
self-destruct with considerable union help...
It wasn't that the union set out to destroy the company (which had a
truly putrid low- and mid-level management culture), but that the
significantly more competent rank and file employees (mostly electrical
engineers) who had been carrying the burden of not only their own work,
but that of less competent (and sometimes more highly-paid) peers,
slipped into the "Not My Job" attitude.
Strictly speaking, they were right - but from a practical viewpoint, the
effect was that teamwork went out the window - and it didn't take long
before the primary concern became keeping one's backside covered.
My last project with the company (for a government client whose name we
were told never to even speak aloud) came about because RCA was so
paralyzed that they'd felt the need to replace all RCA employees,
including the project managers, with consultants. The RCA folks were
sent to work on the smaller, less critical, and less sensitive Aegis
project (where they built the gee-whiz command and control system that
later erroneously targeted and killed an Iranian airliner).
Every time I've heard one of these tales of corporate demise and been
able to ask questions, I've learned of an unhealthy management culture
/and/ a worker attitude sickness that seemed traceable to a
union-encouraged breakdown in teamwork and an alienation of management
and worker people - and in every such instance I've seen no way to lay
all of the responsibility on just one of the parties.
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