O/T: Michael Moore gets it right sometimes.

Page 7 of 10  


A quick Lobotomy and back on the street!
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NOT a good idea. There enough French Canadians on this planet already.
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NOT a good idea. There enough French Canadians on this planet already.
============================================================== LOL!
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wrote:

...I wonder if there's a study out there regarding gradations of murder. What percentage of inmates on death row are there because they, *without a doubt* murdered another human being; THEY are the ones who don't deserve to breathe our air for even 5 minutes after conviction.

...yup! Me too. Lots of good books, I'd be happy...

...yup! Me too...
cg
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"Lew Hodgett" wrote

Ask anyone sitting in that chair about 30 seconds before the switch is flipped as to his immediate "choice".
Think about that ...
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wrote:

They need to bring him down here to Texas for the trial. After the Enron and other scandals, we might get the death penalty for his sorry ass.
No kidding, "what's his name" head fool of Enron sure did not do well after being sentensed to prison. I suspect that his ways would not have gone well for him with his new neighbors in prison.
He sure deserves it. How does one man even control 50 billion dollars by himself? I read a lot about this, and apparently he has had this under his hat as his own little project for almost 40 years.
I'll bet if the market had held, he would still be going strong.
Sounds to me like it's time to fire up old Sparky.
Why waste the electricity, rope, or bullet. Just turn him loose in the general prison population and not in a country club facility.
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If unions go down you can count on 10$ an hour as a high wage for the middle class as the greedy 5% scoop up all the easy cash. It has happened in the forest industry. they broke the unions by contracting out. Now the company takes bids for the work and contractors lowball each other so much, they end up going bankrupt and not paying there workers. The company still gets the same money for the logged area as the logs are sold through them. I like the Chinese but if you think some Chinese company isn't going to lowball you to get your job,good luck to you.GM has plans for a big plant in Russia, is it with bailout money? Bankers just took us for 850 000 000 000 if not more and no regulation and you think they have your interests in mind? They have transferred all the cash from public to private hands now they are transferring private dept to the public.I can think of nothing since Regan that has been done by the neo-conservative powers that control the republican party that has helped the middle class.The republican party isn't conservative anymore they are just greedy and power hungry praying on the stupid.

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I would sure like to see if that turns out to be ture or not.
If it turns out to be true, the unions will be back but for now the unions are a big part of the problem. I't probably not a bad thing to get paid for your actual worth.
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How are unions the problem? Gm I believe has some of the best productivity levels in the auto industry.It's about a liveable wage ,you can always find someone to do it cheaper. If that ceo that ran GM into the ground is worth 15 million a year. I'm sure you or I could run GM into the bankruptcy for allot less.

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Rusty wrote:

You are conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room. GM productivity is high because of very high levels of automation, not because the union 'workers' are working harder. Moreover, GM is stuck paying ridiculous benefits that no other working group in America enjoys. Among these are - for some classes of UAW members - being paid full salary and benefits forever after being laid off. This is not a living wage, it is insanity. More to the point, some bolt tightener in a factory isn't worth something in the area of $80/hr (depending whose numbers are accurate) when you take into account base and benefits.
I've seen more than one company ruined by union greed. Fortunately, this time, the UAW has their fellow Communists running the congress and will likely get a "UAW Bailout" bill passed in some form with minimal concessions on their part. Instead of just running the companies into the ground, the UAW will simply waddle up to the public trough like all the other pigs and demand the rest of us maintain their quality of life. The problem is, with all the swine at the trough, just who is going to be left to actually produce new wealth so the old, lazy pigs (the execs, the unions, the financial companies, the individuals in excessive debt ...) can continue to eat for "free"?????
P.S. The CEO didn't run GM into the ground, the UAW did. The CEO just didn't do his job and the tell the union to go scratch. The best part of all this may be that these jobs will be lost forever and end up in China or Indonesia. I'd love to see the UAW idiots take on the Chinese government...

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Tim where do you get 80$ an hour out your ass like FUX news get real with the facts.We are all losing our jobs to China or other 3rd world countries.The only reason auto works jobs have lasted this long is the unions and I see these jobs as gone now to. Instead of bitching about the guy with the good job why don't you fight for good jobs and wages.Nah you want cheap china goods .Maybe we will meet on day fighting for that greeter job at Wal-Mart.

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Rusty, Rusty, Rusty. The presence of unions have make it possible for foreign car manufacturers to be able to afford to come "here" and build cars more profitably. And yes a majority of that money stays here and helps to fuel our economy. If the Big 3 could be more competitive they would not be in the situation that they are in. Because of the unions, foreign car manufacturers have come here, built manufacturing plants, and are kicking the Big 3's butts.
The reason that some are loosing jobs to China is because the cost to manufacture here is too high. The expense does not justify the quality being produced.
Instead of bitching about loosing your job, accept what your work is really worth or do something to better your self with out relying on the government or union to make up for your inability to compete.
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Leon wrote:

I don't know the exact dollar amount, but it's in that range. UAW unskilled labor is arount $28/hr or so. Skilled labor is up to $40/hr or so from what I've been able to find. Now, add to that another 20% or so for the employer's portion of the taxes (medicare, unemployment premiums, and so forth). BUT, that does not include their *benefits*. Things like healthcare drive this number way, way up - *especially* for a UAW shop because they are funding the "legacy" benefits for the unrighteous deals the union cut in the past - like paying people full salary and benefits who are not working at all. Is the real number $80/hr? I don't know, maybe it's only $70/hr all in. But $70/hr full burdened cost for an employee works out to be about $140K/yr per employee - that's more than a lot of experienced engineers, scientists, and even some doctors make - people who have years invested in acquiring rare and specialized skills. It is insane that an essentially unskilled labor pool (for the most part - there are skilled trades in the UAW as well) should command this kind of money in the face of their company failing. They now want us - the taxpayers - to bail *them* out. I do not feel like subsidizing Joe The Bolt Turner. His family is not more important than mine. Joe needs to get real about just what salary his job realistically can command.

And that's the same reason these jobs are about to disappear - they are priced irrationally.

I fight for good jobs and wages by fighting to keep the government small, taxes smaller, and everyone accountable for their own actions.

Exactly.
That, and there are not Cheap Plastic Dog Vomit factories left in the US ;)

I agree, but accountability for one's self is doomed - the last election proved this. The mooching masses elected someone to give them "free" stuff that other people have to pay for.
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Rusty wrote:

In the management world, that's a "loaded" rate.
It includes cash pay, benefits (insurances, vacations, pension contribution, 401(k) matching funds, product discounts), taxes (SSI, Worker's Comp, etc...), supervision percentage, tools, your parking space...
The reason why it includes supervision is that if you eliminated one supervisor's worth of worker's, you eliminate the supervisor. Say your company averages a 15-1 worker to supervisor ratio... Each worker position gets 1/15th of a supervisor's LOADED rated charged to the position. It dominoes up the line.
The loaded rate is the number it costs the company to employ you. This is the number that you have to add more value to the company, in order for you to make a positive contribution to the bottom line. If you don't you're a liability.
Many companies do a terrible job of explaining total compensation to rank and file employees.
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A liveable wage doing a job that most "anyone can do"??? One does not need to have a college education to put parts on a car in an assembly line, empty trash cans or what else the workers do. I am sure a majority of the workers could be hard workers but this is not a profession that is in great demand. Their shoes could easily be filled by some one fresh out of HS. The Unions are a problem because GM spends 90% of its profit on each vehicle on legacy benefit programs for employees that are retired. Where else can you be layed off from a job and expect to receive a salery between 75-90% of the full salary for 2 years.
If that ceo that ran GM into the ground is worth

Absolutely and with out a doubt if you pulled 50 college educated people off the street at least a few of them could do a better job.
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Destroy the unions so we can all do worse. The only thing wrong with union jobs is I don't have one.
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Rusty wrote:

Right, because unions are a magic potion that create wealth out of thin air. The laws of economics are superseded by the demands of the unions. As long as the union is there, there will always be lots of wealth and productivity. Right.
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Tim Daneliuk wrote:

Why not? Surely all you have to do is apply for a job for which you're qualified, pay the fee to join the union, then do the work and make your dues payments on time - right? Seems perfectly straight-forward to me. :)
That's the way it played for me when I got out of the army and went to work for the C&EI Railroad as an accountant (except that I didn't know anything about either railroads or accounting) - I just wanted a job and told 'em that I'd learn whatever I needed and whatever job they put me on, I'd do it well until school started in the fall. I bought the mandatory union card and paid my dues - and ended up with a big pile of cardboard boxes full of paperwork on TOFC (later called "piggyback") shipments that had (variously) never been billed or billed but never paid. The problem was that TOFC was new and attempts to process the billings had run into the "Not My Job" wall. It became /my/ job. The best guess was that there was about $10,000,000 in receivables lurking in the boxes, and that I would probably do well to collect half of that.
A month later, I had the process down fairly well, and made my second monthly dues payment. I'd managed to recover just under $2,000,000 and felt pretty good about myself, the job I had, and life in general. In true cornball fashion, I even found myself singing "I been workin' on the railroad" on the way home one payday. :)
It was about halfway through the second month that the shop steward stopped by my desk and invited me to join the group for the 10am coffee break in the cafeteria - and I told him "No thanks, I've some work I'm trying to get finished up before lunch."
Big mistake - but I had no way of knowing just how big it was, or even that it was a mistake. He left to go drink coffee and I went back to work.
About a week later I was called into the VP Operation's office and asked to close the door. He told me that the union had presented two choices - either Dovey is in the cafeteria for both morning and afternoon coffee breaks or the /entire/ railroad would cease functioning. Period. I apologized for causing a problem and assured him that I'd be in the cafeteria for all future coffee breaks.
And so I was - but I took whatever I was working on and a yellow pad with me. Sometimes I even drank a cup of coffee as I made notes.
I don't think that was actually the end of the matter because at the end of that second month there was a posting on the bulletin board for a "TOFC Accounting Manager" job opening. Apparently the union contract specified that no one could be hired for any job unless it was first posted so that existing employees could ask to be considered - and a couple of the gals in accounting told me that I should write a letter asking for the job. I did - and became a department manager. As a management person, I didn't need to continue my union membership (and didn't) and could take coffee breaks whenever I wanted (and didn't). It didn't particularly bother me that I was the only person in my department. It wasn't difficult to tell that the shop steward felt differently.
In September I asked for an exit interview with the VP I'd talked to earlier, and was able to tell him (as if he hadn't already known) that I'd gotten through the original pile and recovered more than $12 million of the estimated 10, that all TOFC accounts were current, and that I'd put together a manual containing all the contact information for all of the customers with notes about what approaches worked best with which customers.
When I suggested that he make everyone managers of one-person departments, he just smiled and wished me well in school.

In spite of my experiences, a union /can/ be a positive influence in a workplace to ensure (or at least advocate for) fairness and justice. My experience is limited, but I think plant unions are better suited to work /with/ management than are trade unions.
I would suggest to Rusty that a close look at both employer /and/ union is advisable...
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Morris Dovey wrote:

I've seen unions shops that worked well in small manufacturing settings (say, under 100 employees). I've never seen a union setting that was effective or worthwhile at large scale. I have no objection in principle to organized labor, only that companies ought not to be forced to bargain with them if they choose not to.
For the record, I watched a large ($6 billion) company I once worked for - and that I really loved as an employer and place to work - get completely sabotaged by their unions. These unions then took the company over themselves and howled like stuck pigs when they ran the company into the ground and the pensions they'd pledged to buy the company were then worthless. I think this is not atypical of very large company union behavior.
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Tim Daneliuk wrote:

I haven't paid attention enough to generalize - but I watched RCA self-destruct with considerable union help...
It wasn't that the union set out to destroy the company (which had a truly putrid low- and mid-level management culture), but that the significantly more competent rank and file employees (mostly electrical engineers) who had been carrying the burden of not only their own work, but that of less competent (and sometimes more highly-paid) peers, slipped into the "Not My Job" attitude.
Strictly speaking, they were right - but from a practical viewpoint, the effect was that teamwork went out the window - and it didn't take long before the primary concern became keeping one's backside covered.
My last project with the company (for a government client whose name we were told never to even speak aloud) came about because RCA was so paralyzed that they'd felt the need to replace all RCA employees, including the project managers, with consultants. The RCA folks were sent to work on the smaller, less critical, and less sensitive Aegis project (where they built the gee-whiz command and control system that later erroneously targeted and killed an Iranian airliner).
Every time I've heard one of these tales of corporate demise and been able to ask questions, I've learned of an unhealthy management culture /and/ a worker attitude sickness that seemed traceable to a union-encouraged breakdown in teamwork and an alienation of management and worker people - and in every such instance I've seen no way to lay all of the responsibility on just one of the parties.
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