O/T: Abby Sunderland

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On 1/15/2010 10:37 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

Don't know about that, but the insurance industry can damn sure give you the stats for how lack of "experience" and mature "judgment" justifies the increased cost of insuring 18-25 year old while operating motor vehicles.
I can't imagine this statistical fact somehow magically disappearing at sea.
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Swingman wrote:

apples to grapefruit comparison. the two aren't comparable. the distractions to driving and the quick changing road environment simply aren't there in mid-ocean.
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On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:26:08 -0700, "charlie"

You mean because of inexperience, you can't mismanage the operation of a sailboat and swamp it or turn it over?
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snipped-for-privacy@teksavvy.com wrote:

no. i mean that you're not going to be spilling a slushee whilst texting and talking to the other 4 teens in the car in crowded rush hour traffic at 60 mph tailgating trying to find the right tune on your ipod whilst trying to put on makeup in mid-ocean.
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On 1/15/2010 11:26 AM, charlie wrote:

Horseshit! ... lack of experience and mature judgment are factors of age, not type of activity.
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Swingman wrote:

then you prove your counter argument.
lack of experience for a 16 y.o. isn't this case, as it is in a new driver at 16 y.o. she has been sailing for at least 10 years and has the experience.
comparing her to a driver with 10 years of driving experience would be comparable.
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On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:39:53 -0700, "charlie"

And after 10 years of driving everybody has all the experience they'll ever need and have absolutely nothing else to learn?
If that's true, then tell me how two people over 30 with 10+ years of driving experience can get into a car accident with each other? By your standards, the accident should never have happened. Explain that to me please.
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snipped-for-privacy@teksavvy.com wrote:

it's either called an accident, or neglicence on one or the other's part.
given that statement, then no one should never go out in a boat since they would never have enough experience.
we're not comparing 2 30 year olds against each other in this case. you're asking about the insurance company statistics of comparing people with similar years of experience at their individual tasks. i doubt that a person sailing in mid ocean is going to collide with someone driving.
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On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:15:34 -0700, "charlie"

You've got to be kidding me? How about a collision with a big wave? Boats get swamped all the time when their skippers don't or *can't* or misjudge a big wave in a storm. And, it even happens when there isn't a storm.
At this point, I have to believe you're trolling Charlie. I'm gone from this thread.
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snipped-for-privacy@teksavvy.com wrote:

how is this different if the skipper is older?

?
i'm simply pointing out that what you think you're arguing about isn't consistent. you changed arguments midstream, bringing up a comparison which isn't pertinent.
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----------------------------- We are not talking about stink boats here but well found blue water boats designed for the task.
Lew
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On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 14:45:27 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"

I'm guessing by stink boat, you're talking about some floating barge with all the buoyancy of a lead bucket. In any event, I was referring to the better boats, designed to be safer. Any boat can capsize in the open seas under the right circumstances, even with an experienced sailor.
Sorry, I'm not arguing this anymore.
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----------------------------------------------- "Stink boat", a term used by sailors to describe the toy power boats found in most marinas.
Anything under about 60-70 ft qualifies.
"Floating condos" best describes the larger ones including Tigers.
Lew
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On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:56:03 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@teksavvy.com wrote:

My 30 foot sailboat has been knocked over flat on it's side a couple of times in severe conditions. The thing about sailboats is that they pop back up. The danger when it happens is that things and people go flying. In the sort of conditions where that can happen, all openings in the boat are shut and secured, and anyone topside is clipped in on a short tether.
It's not uncommon for the crew of a sailboat to call for rescue and be picked up, and then the boat is found floating months later with little actual damage.
The vast majority of sailboats that sink, do so while at their dock, tied up.
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On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 10:39:53 -0700, "charlie"

Actually, that isn't directly comparable. The average person, once they have their driver's license doesn't spend every moment they are driving, trying to improve their skills and knowlege. The average sailor never stops trying to learn more and improve their sailing. Comes with the territory.
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snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

the topic under discussion is insurance statistics and comparing general population individuals. they also don't know if the average driver has stopped learning (they wouldn't know that i have years of high speed car racing experience with multiple racetrack classes, for example, which may make me a bit safer than the average driver). they would only compare similarly aged drivers against each other, with modifications as to years of driving experience, lack of prior accidents, ticket history, and perhaps other non-related things like credit score.
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On 1/15/2010 12:22 PM, charlie wrote:

Bzzzzt ... do us all a favor and DAGS to prove to yourself that "lack of experience AND immature judgement" DUE TO AGE, IS the reason for the increased cost of motor vehicle insurance for 18 - 25 year olds ...
This is inarguable, so quitcher arguing.
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Swingman wrote:

but isn't that the whole point of this argument? in this case, she DOES have the experience, negating the comparison in age between her and a new driver. she is NOT a new sailor, whereas a new driver DOES have a lack of experience due to their age.
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On 1/15/2010 12:42 PM, charlie wrote:

Charlie, I will grant you that "experience" does lead to better judgment, but not necessarily to mature judgment.
Look at the age range to better understand the "immaturity" aspect.
I really don't want to argue this any longer, but do appreciate your POV.
Thanks ...
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On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 11:22:05 -0700, "charlie"

If anything, that type of background likely makes you considered more of a risk by insurance companies. If you are smart, you won't mention any of that when applying for insurance. I'm pretty sure it would work against you. I also don't understand how you think that background makes you representative of an "average driver". The average driver is not a driving enthusiast. They drive for transportation. Most sailors, on the other hand, do not use sailboats for simple transport. They are virtually ALL enthusiasts.

Insurance companies don't insure based on individuals. They assign you to a group. They don't give a crap about you on a personal level.
There won't be insurance stats on circumnavigators, because 1.) There are so few circumnavigators, and, 2.) Ocean sailors mostly don't have insurance.
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