This question pertains to what's available from North American wood dealers. This may well be a naive question, but why is it that there doesn't seem to be much available in terms of other North American trees such as Elm, Sycamore, Willow, Birch (not counting plywood), Beech, etc.?
Or to phrase the question a different way, why is Cherry, Walnut, Oak, Poplar, Maple, etc. what's predominately available?
It is not economically viable to to sell the others. There isn't much available and little demand. So, it would be expensive with no one buying it at all. I bought a quantity of Viraro from an importer closing it out. Beautiful wood, but nobody ever heard of it, so he couldn't sell it. Same idea with Beech. Do you want to buy a beech table or a maple table? They look about the same and around here beech is much cheaper, if you can find it, because no one wants it.
You can buy pretty much anything you want if you look in the right place. Google is a good start.
I guess you could ask why the grocery store does not carry fresh Kiwi, or Dates, or Tangerines. Then you might say the store I go to has those fruits. The lumber yards I go to have the limber that you described as scarce.
What ever sells well is what is stocked at most lumber yards. If your lumber yard does not sell what you are looking for you should look at other lumber yards.
Wed, May 9, 2007, 12:28pm (EDT-1) snipped-for-privacy@atww.org.invalid (Michael=A0Faurot) puzzedly queries: This question pertains to what's available from North American wood dealers. This may well be a naive question, but why is it that there doesn't seem to be much available in terms of other North American trees such as Elm, Sycamore, Willow, Birch (not counting plywood), Beech, etc.?
If you're married you could have asked your wife and saved time, she'd know. If they don't have what she wants at one store, she goes to another, then repeats until she finds it. That's all you've got to do. Of course, most women keep going from store to store after they find what they want; that's optional for you.
It's basic, if one place doesn't have what you want, you check another place.
JOAT What is life without challenge and a constant stream of new humiliations?
- Peter Egan
If you're married you could have asked your wife and saved time, she'd know. If they don't have what she wants at one store, she goes to another, then repeats until she finds it. That's all you've got to do. Of course, most women keep going from store to store after they find what they want; that's optional for you.
My wife doesn't go from store to store to store to find what she wants, she picks up the phone and yellow pages and starts dialling until she finds what she wants. If that doesn't work she gets my son to check the internet and orders it from across the border.
Wed, May 9, 2007, 8:25pm snipped-for-privacy@reply.in.this.group (EXT) dot sayeth: My wife doesn't go from store to store to store to find what she wants, she picks up the phone and yellow pages and starts dialling until she finds what she wants. If that doesn't work she gets my son to check the internet and orders it from across the border.
Wonder if that means she's a smart shopper, or just lazy? LOL
JOAT What is life without challenge and a constant stream of new humiliations?
- Peter Egan
They must be better than around here. A great deal of the time, when you call a store and ask if they have something, they will say yes without any idea if they actually do or not.
I'm not so much looking to buy/find any of these types of wood, as I'm musing about why it is that they're not as available as things like Cherry, Walnut, Maple, etc.
I'm sure the principles of supply and demand play a part--regular economics. But why is there more of a demand for Cherry, Walnut and Oak, than say Willow, Elm and Sycamore? I've never actually seen lumber from a Willow, Elm or Sycamore or worked with this stuff. Are these types of trees inferior for typical woodworking type activities? Too hard to work? Ugly? They're not cultivated like the types other types of "common" woods? They're too hard/expensive to cultivate? There's just not enough of them? Disease (e.g., Dutch Elm Disease) has made them too scarce/expensive to turn into lumber?
I'm not looking to buy this stuff per se--I'm just wondering what's the bigger picture here?
I can understand it's not economically viable if there's little demand. But is there a reason for the lack of demand? Is it a case of inertia/tradition? As in, Cherry/Walnut/Oak/etc is what's been used in the past, so that's just what everyone wants and thinks about. Or is there little demand because these other types of woods wood be too expensive to turn into lumber for general consumption?
I understand what you're saying, I've never heard of Viraro either. So if I was looking to buy/use some type of exotic/import wood, I would probably skip Viraro for something else I'd heard of before. But where North American wood is concerned, I think most people in North America have heard of Sycamore, Willow and Elm. I've just never really seen these types of trees available as lumber.
I can't really say whether I'd rather have a table made of Beech or Maple--I've never seen Beech (that I was aware of). Which is part of my musing about what it is that makes these other types of woods less available.
As does mine. Birch is very common, and also available in exotic sub-varieties, like Flame Birch. One of my dealers also carries European Steamed Beech.
Location is important.
Mostly because they're not in nearly as much demand as cherry, walnut, maple, or oak.
The reasons for that are probably a whole 'nuther discussion, but I'd suggest primarily ignorance (most folks have no idea what sycamore, elm, hackberry, etc. look like), habit (people are accustomed to seeing furniture made from cherry, walnut, maple, and oak, and they buy what they're accustomed to), and preference (cherry, walnut, maple, and oak do look nice, after all).
Willow isn't really suitable for most furniture uses; it's quite soft, and rather prone to warp.
Elm used to be used widely in furniture; it's attractive, fairly hard, and works well. I'm sure that Dutch elm disease is a major reason that elm isn't used nearly as much as it used to be.
Sycamore is quite soft, and as such is suitable only for use in furniture that isn't likely to get banged around much. I wouldn't use it for a dining table, for example. When flatsawn, sycamore is prone to warp, and not especially attractive to look at. When quartersawn, though, it's dimensionally stable, and exhibits *spectacular* ray-flake grain. (A Google Images search on quartersawn sycamore will produce some excellent examples.) IMO the main factors inhibiting sycamore's use as a furniture wood are its softness, and widespread unawareness of how beautiful it is when quartersawn.
Supply and demand, for the most part.
Beech vs maple is an easy one: unless quartersawn, beech warps all over creation. Quartersawing is a PITA for the sawyer, and the yield is lower. Using maple is just easier all around.
Others have addressed some of the questions, mostly at a fairly superficial level of "what is widely available is what sells" which is, of course, true. Others have touched on the properties of some particular species but the subject is almost limitless, far more complex than addressed. If you're really interested in the "why's" of why some woods are used for various things and not others the two sources to start with are R Bruce Hoadley's "Understanding Wood".
Yes, but in a sense no one has yet mentioned. Trees compete in the forest. Those that can't compete by outgrowing their fellows toward the light perish in one generation. Supply is sporadic or nil. Desirability of certain species like cherry makes harvesting the forest to encourage this fairly shade-intolerant "fire tree" to grow economically viable, but probably not popular with the "no clearcut" set. Not that fires are allowed, you understand, but they do happen, and birdpoop gets cherry going pretty rapidly among the airborne seeds of their fellow colonizers.
Climax forest has a limited number of species. Here it's beech, (yellow) birch and maple in the deciduous varieties. Hemlock, pine and spruce occur where the soil's poor, tamarack and cedar where it's wet. Next county over it's red oak rather than beech. Stuff like bass, poplar and white birch are abundant, but not worth the sawyer fees and cartage.
Local woods are available from local sawyers, not local lumber dealers.
I think you hit the nail on the head about Elm. Having done a lot of tree work over the years I can tell you that willow is very brittle wood, so that's not desirable for any project I can think of. Sycamore likes wet feet and is seldom or never found too far from a pond, lake or river. So, sycamore is probably never found in large stands (sustainable harvest and all that stuff). My buddy with whom I used to do most of that tree work is now a suburban logger, picking up the logs cut by the residential tree companies who used to be his direct competition. He has learned a lot about sorting and grading logs for the mills. I'll ask him about the mills' demand for specialty woods. It's really a question of knowing the right mill for the log(s).
I do know that the best logs are not saw logs going to saw mills. The best money is paid for veneer grade logs, which probably explains your reference to fine plywoods.
Speaking of sustainable harvest, he bought a couple dozen acres in upstate NY and paid for the whole dang thing with one conservative harvest of cherry. He says he'll get a harvest like that every ten years or so as the other trees mature.
-Dean ready to kill a couple more Norway Maples. He said it isn't very stable and checks a lot. I might save some for the mill anyway, just for fun and curiosity.
Wed, May 9, 2007, 11:33pm (EDT-1) snipped-for-privacy@atww.org.invalid (Michael=A0Faurot) now doth mumble: I'm not looking to buy this stuff per se--I'm just wondering what's the bigger picture here?
Yeah, well you coulda said from the start.
JOAT What is life without challenge and a constant stream of new humiliations?
- Peter Egan
Thanks for the post and all the info. This is the type of information I was after.
Understood. I knew these other types of wood were out there and I could get some if I really wanted. But I was more interested in the background of why things like Cherry/Walnut/Maple/Oak were more predominately available than stuff like Willow/Elm/Sycamore. Thanks again for all the background info.
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