Norm Vs. Marks

The shop itself is owned by Russell Morash.

That's because he's not allowed to. If he started naming brand names, PBS wouldn't air the show anymore. That's why all the brand names are taped over as well. It certainly wasn't Norm's idea.

However, I do think not being "owned" by your corporate sponsors is a good thing. Instead of having to show off the latest products for the guys paying the bills, you just get to focus on woodworking, which is exactly what David Marks does, IMO. That's not to say that Norm is bad, he's just not at the same level as David, nor does he try to be.

There isn't anything on NYW that's going to teach me new techniques or craftsmanship, but if Norm is going to be doing things the wrong way, and his semi-automatic brad launcher, among other things, are simply WRONG IMO, it lessens the show. This is supposed to be woodworking, not hammering things together. If I wanted to see that, I'd watch Bruce Johnson.

I'm more interested in seeing a beautiful piece of furniture that will last generations, not in brads through the face frame "until the glue dries" and a quick coat of poly. I want to see it done right, not done quick. Craftsmanship takes time and not every project can be done in a weekend.

Reply to
Brian Henderson
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Considering the average American is a mental vegetable, sitting in front of the television, watching anything they decide to put on the screen because they're too lazy to reach for the remote, I hope you watch less TV! ;)

Reply to
Brian Henderson

Yes, I'm aware of that. That's why I mentioned his name.

I don't think you can say unequivocally that he doesn't mention brands because he's not allowed to, unless of course you're connected with the program and know for sure. He just doesn't strike me as a shill. I have the impression he's about the show and the project and not the marketing of tools. You obviously have the feeling that he's practically about to burst from the strain of withholding the vital information that the clearly visible DJ20 is manufactured by Delta, which is so cleverly obscured.

Well you certainly can't accuse Norm of showing off the latest products of his sponsors. While he may get new tools occasionally from them, he then uses them for years. He certainly doesn't have a load of new tools every episode. Moreover, as I have pointed out before, he uses plenty of tools (the same way; for years, if they're any good) that aren't even made by the sponsors.

Not only all of that, but exactly how does Norm lose his focus on woodworking with all of that corporate bill paying you claim he does? In a 24 minute episode, How much time does he spend hawking tools?

And how does that compare with all of the commercial breaks in WoodWorks and the shilling for the DIY website that Marks does in them? Not to mention the reminders of "what we've done so far" after each break. How many minutes of actual content are in a WoodWorks episode? I'll wager quite a bit less than the 24 minutes that a NYW episode is.

Then what's the point of watching? You know it all already, maybe you should do something else. The rest of us, who are not so accomplished as you, do find things to take away from each episode.

Well, your opinion doesn't agree with my opinion. And from reading another thread here in the last few hours, there are plenty of others who don't share that opinion, either.

You'll find that your definition of woodworking suits you, just as my definition, which is different from yours, suits me. Again, you focus on a few seconds of brad nailing and disparage the entire program because of it.

Apples and oranges. Using brads doesn't consign a work to a short life. Every method you use to join materials is only "until the glue dries." Apparently that phrase irritates you and you use it to justify indicting him for using those convenient and useful brads. How sad.

That assumes (by you) that several coats of poly (he doesn't do a single, "quick coat" finish) is somehow inadequate or of lesser quality. Maybe you're special and have the time, inclination, and resources to do other finishes, but there's nothing wrong with poly, unless you have a specific requirement that it won't meet or you're a finishing snob.

What a load of blather. I've seen Frank Klausz hand cut a dovetail joint in about two minutes that's probably better than one you can cut in an hour and certainly better than one I could cut in a week. By your standard he must be a hack because it only took him two minutes.

Of course it can't. What's your point? Norm does projects that are completed in a two day shoot. What's wrong with that? Just because I couldn't and maybe you couldn't get it done in a weekend is immaterial to anything. Do you approve of the two part projects?

And, miracle of miracles, doesn't Marks complete each project in one episode? Is that a one, two, three day shoot? I"ll bet you'll say if he does it in one, he's a hack; two he's a little less of a hack; if it's three or more, he's a fine craftsman.

Why don't you cut to the chase and repeat after me:

"My name is Brian and I'm a Norm hater."

Admitting you have a problem is the first step in the long, difficult road to recovery.

LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

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Reply to
LRod

On 29 Jan 2004 20:21:11 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@gemtechservice.com (Jerry McCaffrey) brought forth from the murky depths:

PLEASE don't diss Norm like that. I hated the sweatered dork. You may, however, diss his plaid shirts.

The sugary-sweet, Yuppified descriptions of his works don't do anything to endear him to me, but I know that he's not like that. Ever see an early, pre-TV picture of him? He has tattoos all over both forearms. Ever notice the long-sleeved shirts he wears on the show? Now you know why he does that. ;) I hope he gets more comfy with the camera next season.

I wrote to DIY to tell/ask them: A) I watch only one show on their entire DIY lineup: Wood Works. and B) Please show more of the Wood Works episodes.

She's a babe alright.

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Reply to
Larry Jaques

Then why did you say it suggested ownership by Norm?

Can't remember the last time I watched Norm, to be honest. I don't get PBS here and they pulled his shows off HGTV, so...

And there are a lot who do. What's your point?

No, any more than whacking in 6d nails consigns a work to a short life, but it makes the thing look ugly. Norm doesn't even pretend to fill in the holes, he just polys over everything and calls it done.

It has nothing to do with what you or I can do, but with the complexity of Norm's projects. He only takes on things that can be done in 1-2 days. While there's nothing wrong with that, a lot of us aren't beginners and that's primarily what Norm appeals to. You eventually get to a point when craftsmanship is more important than speed.

Actually, some of his projects take weeks to finish and he says so. There are times when he needs to put the finish away for quite some time for it to complete.

I don't hate Norm, but he's not the end-all-be-all of woodworking that many people make him out to be. He's a good start for the beginning woodworker, he gets people interested, but he's something that most of us outgrow eventually.

Maybe someday you'll even make it.

Reply to
Brian Henderson

That's a surprise. You speak as if you're an expert.

I can't recall him putting a brad through a face frame and your assumption that he never fills nail holes is more hyperbole as well.

Primarily appeals to beginners? lol. What have you built that's more complex than NYW projects?

Really. Perhaps you can provide some instruction for viewers so that they can rise to your level of "craftsmanship"? Why don't you provide a short list off the top of your head?

Norm also does multiple step finishes. Just because the show is presented in two segments doesn't mean they're completed in two days.

Well, given your spiel on how the majority of Americans are too lazy to reach for a remote to change a channel, you sound like a hater in general.

Where are these folks?

lol...

By all means provide some urls of auction catalogs or similar so we can view your sophisticated, complex artistry.

Reply to
p_j

Norm would woop the tar outta that pretty boy Marks any day of the week. He would bitch slap that little wimp untill he cried for mama.........

JMHO......................

Brian wrote:

Reply to
Mapdude

Actually...

First of all, a silly, childish proposition.

However: Aw, never mind. Just go with what I said above.

Cheers, Eric

Reply to
Eric Lund

I'll take the reins. I think Marks would kick Norm's ass. Norm is a fat outa shape guy and Marks could wear him out with a stick and move technique. Besides, didn't someone say that Marks is covering up all kinds of jailhouse tattoos with those long sleeves and the wimpy demeanor is an act?

Reply to
Bruce

Brian wrote in :

The recapping on the HGTV shows is inane and insulting. I only saw one Marks promo, but if they are like that also then FURGETABOUTIT!

Reply to
Jerry McCaffrey

mama.........

Norm's not so out of shape these days... When I met him last summer he mentioned that he'd lost 40 lbs. If you see him in the new 2004 season shows he looks trim.

John

Reply to
John Grossbohlin

Excellent Mark! Simply put, well stated.

Praise from one that swings a hammer almost every day.

Robert

Reply to
Robert L. Witte

Thanks for summing up the difference so nicely. And rest assured, I'll be sure to turn on Nahm's show the next time I want to see construction work.

Chuck Vance Just say (tmPL) And that does help explain Nahm's use of the nailer.

Reply to
Conan the Librarian

I'll bet a bunch of people here would love to learn more about this. I certainly would.

Perhaps some dimensions and so on.

Could be a good spring project.

Dave

Reply to
Dave

Not really.

Still waiting for your list of your projects with greater "craftsmanship." You know, before you outgrew "beginner" instructions...

Reply to
p_j

This is but one of many things they don't show in any given half-hour episode... again, they couldn't possibly keep the show to one half-hour if they showed everything...

And he *has* mentioned it, and they've shown it in various episodes as well. They just don't mention it every single time. This is par for the course for nearly every show in the genre...

Reply to
Brian

The best wooddorker that I've ever met (I've never properly met Mike Hide but he's prolly in this fellas league) has a shop about two miles from my place.

It has a big-ass tablesaw (Wadkin), a big-ass bandsaw (there's not one thing on it that indicates who made it), 30 inch planer of unknown parentage, and a Delta Cabinet Shop Shaper (The Ultimate Router Table).

There's some other crap around there, a twelve inch jointer and some other old-big iron, including a lathe that will turn something as long as twenty feet - but I don't know why and neither does he.

I don't believe that any of these machines are newer than the 1930's.

The shopowner won't say. He says that they've always just been there.

The stuff that this man turns out is amazing. He mostly does historical reproductions but does some "historical re-imaginings" that are flat out priceless (that ain't quite true - the last one that I saw was a cherry highboy that went for almost twelve grand).

I once asked him if he'd ever considered having a TV show come in and do a segment on him.

Damned near got me kicked out of the shop.

"I take two hundred hours to make a piece and them TV knuckleheads would turn it into fifteen minutes of bullshit !"

I just kinda helped sweep up for a little bit - he was better after I got him some coffee.

Thomas J. Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) (Real Email is tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet)

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Reply to
Tom Watson

I'll see what I can do... someone had a digital camera there. I also got the impression the guy was joining the club so I anticipate seeing him again.

John

Reply to
John Grossbohlin

Amen to that. I believe there is no better way to learn. It may take = longer but you will know the craft from start to finish. Puff

Reply to
Puff Griffis

Bring back the notion of the "apprentice", I say!

My dream is to squirrel away enough money so I can hang around shops like this when I retire. I'd gladly sweep/go-fer coffee just to watch craftsmen work.

Reply to
mttt

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