Norm Vs. Marks

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forth from the murky depths:

It's the combo of
1) excess glue smeared onto the wood with a wet rag, 2) beaucoup brads, and 3) poly slathered on top of that
which gets to me.
I recently finished his "Measure Twice, Cut Once" book and was astounded that the entire book was devoted to tailless tools. Amazing. Norm's a good guy despite his few ugly habits.
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<snip>

Norm is sort of like the Mr. Rogers of Woodworking. How could not like him? I saw David Marks only once on the DIY promos on HGTV and he seemed OK, but a bit impressed with himself if I remember. I was less than impressed with the other DIY promos I've seen and certainly wouldn't request DIY from my cable provider. The DIY quality of shows seem less than the "Other Marks" (Jodie, the "shop bunny" with Pat Simpson on HGTV)and at least she's cuter than David ;)
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On 29 Jan 2004 20:21:11 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@gemtechservice.com (Jerry McCaffrey) brought forth from the murky depths:

PLEASE don't diss Norm like that. I hated the sweatered dork. You may, however, diss his plaid shirts.

The sugary-sweet, Yuppified descriptions of his works don't do anything to endear him to me, but I know that he's not like that. Ever see an early, pre-TV picture of him? He has tattoos all over both forearms. Ever notice the long-sleeved shirts he wears on the show? Now you know why he does that. ;) I hope he gets more comfy with the camera next season.

I wrote to DIY to tell/ask them: A) I watch only one show on their entire DIY lineup: Wood Works. and B) Please show more of the Wood Works episodes.

She's a babe alright.
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The shop itself is owned by Russell Morash.

That's because he's not allowed to. If he started naming brand names, PBS wouldn't air the show anymore. That's why all the brand names are taped over as well. It certainly wasn't Norm's idea.
However, I do think not being "owned" by your corporate sponsors is a good thing. Instead of having to show off the latest products for the guys paying the bills, you just get to focus on woodworking, which is exactly what David Marks does, IMO. That's not to say that Norm is bad, he's just not at the same level as David, nor does he try to be.

There isn't anything on NYW that's going to teach me new techniques or craftsmanship, but if Norm is going to be doing things the wrong way, and his semi-automatic brad launcher, among other things, are simply WRONG IMO, it lessens the show. This is supposed to be woodworking, not hammering things together. If I wanted to see that, I'd watch Bruce Johnson.
I'm more interested in seeing a beautiful piece of furniture that will last generations, not in brads through the face frame "until the glue dries" and a quick coat of poly. I want to see it done right, not done quick. Craftsmanship takes time and not every project can be done in a weekend.
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On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:32:42 GMT, Brian Henderson

Yes, I'm aware of that. That's why I mentioned his name.

I don't think you can say unequivocally that he doesn't mention brands because he's not allowed to, unless of course you're connected with the program and know for sure. He just doesn't strike me as a shill. I have the impression he's about the show and the project and not the marketing of tools. You obviously have the feeling that he's practically about to burst from the strain of withholding the vital information that the clearly visible DJ20 is manufactured by Delta, which is so cleverly obscured.

Well you certainly can't accuse Norm of showing off the latest products of his sponsors. While he may get new tools occasionally from them, he then uses them for years. He certainly doesn't have a load of new tools every episode. Moreover, as I have pointed out before, he uses plenty of tools (the same way; for years, if they're any good) that aren't even made by the sponsors.
Not only all of that, but exactly how does Norm lose his focus on woodworking with all of that corporate bill paying you claim he does? In a 24 minute episode, How much time does he spend hawking tools?
And how does that compare with all of the commercial breaks in WoodWorks and the shilling for the DIY website that Marks does in them? Not to mention the reminders of "what we've done so far" after each break. How many minutes of actual content are in a WoodWorks episode? I'll wager quite a bit less than the 24 minutes that a NYW episode is.

Then what's the point of watching? You know it all already, maybe you should do something else. The rest of us, who are not so accomplished as you, do find things to take away from each episode.

Well, your opinion doesn't agree with my opinion. And from reading another thread here in the last few hours, there are plenty of others who don't share that opinion, either.

You'll find that your definition of woodworking suits you, just as my definition, which is different from yours, suits me. Again, you focus on a few seconds of brad nailing and disparage the entire program because of it.

Apples and oranges. Using brads doesn't consign a work to a short life. Every method you use to join materials is only "until the glue dries." Apparently that phrase irritates you and you use it to justify indicting him for using those convenient and useful brads. How sad.

That assumes (by you) that several coats of poly (he doesn't do a single, "quick coat" finish) is somehow inadequate or of lesser quality. Maybe you're special and have the time, inclination, and resources to do other finishes, but there's nothing wrong with poly, unless you have a specific requirement that it won't meet or you're a finishing snob.

What a load of blather. I've seen Frank Klausz hand cut a dovetail joint in about two minutes that's probably better than one you can cut in an hour and certainly better than one I could cut in a week. By your standard he must be a hack because it only took him two minutes.

Of course it can't. What's your point? Norm does projects that are completed in a two day shoot. What's wrong with that? Just because I couldn't and maybe you couldn't get it done in a weekend is immaterial to anything. Do you approve of the two part projects?
And, miracle of miracles, doesn't Marks complete each project in one episode? Is that a one, two, three day shoot? I"ll bet you'll say if he does it in one, he's a hack; two he's a little less of a hack; if it's three or more, he's a fine craftsman.
Why don't you cut to the chase and repeat after me:
"My name is Brian and I'm a Norm hater."
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in the long, difficult road to recovery.
LRod
Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
http://www.woodbutcher.net
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Then why did you say it suggested ownership by Norm?

Can't remember the last time I watched Norm, to be honest. I don't get PBS here and they pulled his shows off HGTV, so...

And there are a lot who do. What's your point?

No, any more than whacking in 6d nails consigns a work to a short life, but it makes the thing look ugly. Norm doesn't even pretend to fill in the holes, he just polys over everything and calls it done.

It has nothing to do with what you or I can do, but with the complexity of Norm's projects. He only takes on things that can be done in 1-2 days. While there's nothing wrong with that, a lot of us aren't beginners and that's primarily what Norm appeals to. You eventually get to a point when craftsmanship is more important than speed.

Actually, some of his projects take weeks to finish and he says so. There are times when he needs to put the finish away for quite some time for it to complete.

I don't hate Norm, but he's not the end-all-be-all of woodworking that many people make him out to be. He's a good start for the beginning woodworker, he gets people interested, but he's something that most of us outgrow eventually.
Maybe someday you'll even make it.
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That's a surprise. You speak as if you're an expert.

I can't recall him putting a brad through a face frame and your assumption that he never fills nail holes is more hyperbole as well.

Primarily appeals to beginners? lol. What have you built that's more complex than NYW projects?

Really. Perhaps you can provide some instruction for viewers so that they can rise to your level of "craftsmanship"? Why don't you provide a short list off the top of your head?

Norm also does multiple step finishes. Just because the show is presented in two segments doesn't mean they're completed in two days.

Well, given your spiel on how the majority of Americans are too lazy to reach for a remote to change a channel, you sound like a hater in general.

Where are these folks?

lol...
By all means provide some urls of auction catalogs or similar so we can view your sophisticated, complex artistry.
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Norm would woop the tar outta that pretty boy Marks any day of the week. He would bitch slap that little wimp untill he cried for mama.........
JMHO......................
Brian wrote:

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Actually...
First of all, a silly, childish proposition.
However: Aw, never mind. Just go with what I said above.
Cheers, Eric
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In rec.woodworking

I'll take the reins. I think Marks would kick Norm's ass. Norm is a fat outa shape guy and Marks could wear him out with a stick and move technique. Besides, didn't someone say that Marks is covering up all kinds of jailhouse tattoos with those long sleeves and the wimpy demeanor is an act?
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week.
mama.........
kinds
Norm's not so out of shape these days... When I met him last summer he mentioned that he'd lost 40 lbs. If you see him in the new 2004 season shows he looks trim.
John
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week.
mama.........
kinds
Yeah. He's also cut like a body builder, but not as bulky. And there's really only one tatoo unless he has more under his shirt (or, dare I say, pants).
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In rec.woodworking

Dangit Eric, I was embellishing your story a little to scare Norm :)
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<snip>

<snip>
The recapping on the HGTV shows is inane and insulting. I only saw one Marks promo, but if they are like that also then FURGETABOUTIT!
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Not really.
Still waiting for your list of your projects with greater "craftsmanship." You know, before you outgrew "beginner" instructions...
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This is but one of many things they don't show in any given half-hour episode... again, they couldn't possibly keep the show to one half-hour if they showed everything...

And he *has* mentioned it, and they've shown it in various episodes as well. They just don't mention it every single time. This is par for the course for nearly every show in the genre...
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I dunno ... I think there are folks who question some of his techniques. I don't see how that's necessarily a bad thing.

Actually, it's not so much his use of powertools as it is his use of tools that aren't available to anyone who doesn't have corporate sponsorships. (And there were those problems with him using too much glue and brads and RBS for "coloring" his projects).

Cool. So when was the last time you saw Nahm joint or surface a board by hand?

Sometimes it evens takes a week!
BTW, several of my recent projects involved taking a mesquite log and dimensioning it exactly as you describe. Know what? It was great fun, even if it did take more than one afternoon.

So go for it. I maintain my girlish figure by doing 99% Neander work.
Chuck Vance Just say (tmPL) BTW, I give you about a 5 on the trollmeter.
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Marks made his own hinges...
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 16:16:31 -0700, mttt wrote

Don't worry people, I realy do like the Norm man 8^) I was really just pointing out their differences in design and construction approaches. Norm goes practical, Marks goes artsy. It was just kinda neat seeing them make the same basic thing. I don't fault either of them for using out of reach power tools, I know well enough how to achieve the same effect with what I have. Norm really does love his TimeSaver and I noticed that Marks is really slipping in the "word" for how he likes his MultiRouter. I can get the same cuts with my handheld router as with the MultiRouter, it just will take more time for setup. I do envy the drum sanders though since I really can smooth plane some very thin veneers and instead have to make do with thicker stock, but someday I'll practice with a sled and double sided tape for my planer or hand plane...
-Bruce
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I asked David in a note about the MultiRouter. He gave me the name of some guys in NC (?) that build them. They said the cost, without any bells and whistles, and without the router, was about $2,400. Yikes.
I like both of these guys, but I'm new and just keep plugging along. I think they both love what they're doing and have fun at it.
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