Newbe Question about Shop Heater

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I'll do that right after I convince my wife we don't need the stuff stored up there over the beams.
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On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 23:26:07 -0500, the infamous "Ed Pawlowski"

Ask her one question: Is the stuff stored above the garage/shop worth putting into one of the pay storabe places? Once most people look at it realistically, they toss a whole lot of stuff and save a whole lot of money.
Your mission, Mr. Pawlowski, should you choose to accept it, is to convince your wife that she's already paying money to store that crap and that she really wants to toss it. Good luck.
This post will self-destruct in twenty seconds...
-- "To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." -- Thomas Jefferson
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"Bill" wrote:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productIdB203-63981-HV-0513F&detail=&lpage=none
The heater above is a cute little toy, would probably work well in a desk cubby hole for an office.
Trying to heat an un-insulated, 2 car garage in central Indiana in the middle of winter with a 1500W heater has about as much a chance of doing the job as you have trying to smell an ameba fart from 100 ft away in a hurricane.
Haven't run the numbers, but even 15,000W would probably be very marginal at best.
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

Two of those will keep my garage above freezing, barely, in CT. I have a 135,000 BTU propane heater that brings it up to 80 in about a half an hour on the coldest days I've encountered. Note that a heater that size needs two gas grill sized portable tanks to keep it fed at full blast, one won't maintain a high enough flow rate.
I really need to finish insulating and replace the door.
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On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 06:52:00 -0500, the infamous "J. Clarke"

Well, DUH! For the price of heating one season, you could have _paid_ someone to buy and install that insulation for you, JC.
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On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 20:26:20 -0800, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"

Are you guys doing the math only on getting a room up to temp? What about maintaining heat in a previously heated space? A small heater will take awhile to heat a large space, but once heated, it will maintain it easily. We're not talking 40x60' outbuildings here.
Insulated, a shop will stay warm with minimal input, but it's gotta be well insulated. My gar^H^H^Hshop is attached to the house and gets colder than the house due to leaks. I had an HVAC duct routed there but it stays about 8 degrees cooler or hotter than the house. I use a small (1500W) Patton fan/heater and it brings my shop to a toasty temp in no time. A person working in a shop also adds plenty of BTUs. http://fwd4.me/2ZJ Here's a $20 type which will do it for you if you insulate and if you're not in Alaska/ND/Maine/BFE in the winter.
Bill, as I said, insulate that space and use a fan-blown electric heater or two (on separate circuits, yeah?) to get the space heated so you can work. I saw you link to a convection heater. Forget that. Forced air is the only type of heat to have, period. I worked in a shipping and receiving area in a warehouse in '75. It had radiant heaters and we were always cold. I moved to Oregon and the house came with 240v baseboard heaters (convection). When they were running, my ankles were cold and when I stood up, my forehead instantly broke out in a sweat. I immediately installed a nice Carrier HVAC. It's my first air-conditioned home/shop and I love it. (For $6k, I'd better, huh? But I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm gas heated.)
Convected air stratifies, forced air blends. For comfort, go with forced air.
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scrawled the following:

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200316363_200316363
This isn't much more than a floor model forced air construction-type heater. It mounts up by the ceiling, out of the way, and once installed, it's ready to go whenever you need it. It's vented, so there's no humidity or fumes, also.
In most garage/shops, folks aren't in there every day, all day long. A good sized heater will let you heat it quickly, just when you want it heated.
--
Nonny

Have you ever wondered if the bills
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I'm partial to the system I've got in the shopwarehouse* myself. It's in slab hot water, so once the slab gets warm heat recovery is very quick if the garage door needs to be opened. (It's a big garage door. 10x17) When the temperature approaches 0, the shop is still nice and warm.
No idea how much propane the boiler actually uses itself, this will be the first year heating the house through electric forced air.
(*shopwarehouse: building used for storing every else's junk. Wish they'd find somewhere else to put it.)
Puckdropper
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Puckdropper wrote: ...

I hear ya', brother. If I only had a new slab to put it into... :)
I've talked for 10 years of building a real shop building instead for equipment as well as wood/metal shop instead of trying to get by w/ the old barn and continuing to make do outside... :(
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Let me introduce the Festool shop saver program! When you purchase a tool, figure out what the equivalent Festool tool would cost. Put the difference in your "build a proper shop" fund and when you have enough do it. Once you get your shop built, you're already used to paying Festool prices, so just keep doing it, only this time buy the real thing.
:-)
Puckdropper
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On 03 Nov 2009 23:40:50 GMT, the infamous Puckdropper

That's an extremely expensive option, but it seems like a good one otherwise. I still haven't experienced it anywhere.

Put up ceiling-mounted shelving. With it high, high up there, it's hard for them to get to. They'll take their crap back into the house. <evil grinne>
-- "To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Back? I've got stuff in there that has no idea we even have a house! (It's not mine, I can't do anything with it except move it.)
I've got a little bit of ceiling mounted shelving. I've been wanting to put up more, but just haven't gotten to it yet.
Puckdropper
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Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

A friend of mine has a simple policy - stuff not his left at his house more than two years becomes his to dispose of at his whim and leisure.
D.
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Probably right Lew! But not all of us work in the shop only wearig out swim trunks. 60 is plenty warm for me. LOL.
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Leon wrote:

Now that's a mental picture I didn't need to see. LOL!
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On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 11:16:42 -0600, the infamous Steve Turner

Welding naked is the hardest thing for me.
-- "To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Bill said:

I live in the "deep south" (zone7) and have a 420 sq ft insulated and finished garage with insulated doors (x2). A 1500 watt heater will keep it at a given temperature, but would take days to bring it from mid 30s to 68. (Lots of thermal mass in the form of cast iron, concrete, and such.) And the cost would be prohibitive. I use a kerosene heater (condensation but 26,000 BTU's) and then electric to maintain. A fan to move the naturally rising heat to lower levels is recommended.
Kerosene used to be about the cheapest per BTU with natural gas running a close second, but subsequent mergers of various "energy companies" into monopolies has resulted in almost all forms of energy being priced with a cent or two per BTU. Funny how that worked out... Bastards.
I want this solar heated building: http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
Here, however, baking in the summer is also a problem. There is no way it's going to get air conditioned, yet open the doors and the mosquitoes will carry you away. Same with a swamp cooler - with the addition caveat that the humidity is so high they barely work.
Next place I'm going to bury a 1/2 mile of pipe underground and use it for geoheating/cooling combined with solar. Bastards.
Greg G.
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In dropped this bit of wisdom:

Am I to assume that natural gas is not available to you?
Probably electric is the 2nd most expensive and propane the most expensive.
Kerosene is, for me, the hardest to find.
P D Q
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Probably electric is the 2nd most expensive and propane the most expensive.
********************************************
Not where I live. Electric is double the propane cost.
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Are the walls and ceiling insulated? If it's like most garages (uninsulated), adding some would likely not be a bad idea, and would help cut down on condensation some. It would also significantly lower the cost of heating, if the heating is used much. Ditto on tightening up the worst of the cracks and leaks around the garage door and windows.
Any sort of combustion you have going on in the garage that is not vented to the outside will produce water vapor and CO2 (and, if combustion isn't complete, CO). In many garages, this isn't necessarily a great concern, as there is often a fair amount of air leakage generally and so these gasses don't have too much chance to collect. This also makes them difficult to heat. I'd still tend to prefer heaters that are vented to the outside (or electric, which of course doesn't produce combustion byproducts), to avoid possible problems, and open flames are probably best avoided in a workshop where there may be a bunch of sawdust floating around.
I wouldn't think that heating up air without adding moisture would lead to many condensation problems in general, since the relative humidity of the air is decreasing; certainly, it would be less than with an unvented heater. However, that's more semi-informed speculation than practical knowledge, so don't put overly much faith in it.
Are wood or wood pellet heat reasonable options for you? Around here, at least, they'd be cheaper than LP or electric and probably kerosene. Wood pellets are fairly clean and easy to deal with, especially when compared with raw wood. One of these would probably be my first choice if I had this dilemma. A close second choice would be scouting out an inexpensive (possibly used) small domestic hot-air furnace and putting that in a corner with minimal ductwork but of course proper venting and letting it rip--either gas or oil/kerosene, whichever I could find and get running safely the most easily and cheaply. I would definitely have a big air filter on the cold air intake for the circulating blower, and keep it reasonably clean.
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Andrew Erickson

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