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The variable wasn't the craftsman. The craftsman was a constant in my argument. The quality of the tool will help and enhance the skills of that particular craftsman.
When one brings productivity into the mix, well...end of story. But I guess it is possible to take down a 12 x 6 oak board from 6/4 to 4/4 with a sanding block.
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Robatoy wrote:
| || There does seem to be a relationship between quality tools and || quality of result, but I'm fairly certain that a major component || of that relationship is the level of knowledge and experience of || the person who chooses the tool. | | The variable wasn't the craftsman. The craftsman was a constant in | my argument. | The quality of the tool will help and enhance the skills of that | particular craftsman.
I might buy your argument for one specific craftsman and one specific tool.
My point is that any generalizations extended to other craftsmen and/or other tools are questionable.
| When one brings productivity into the mix, well...end of story. | But I guess it is possible to take down a 12 x 6 oak board from 6/4 | to 4/4 with a sanding block.
And yet it seems to me that a craftsman is unlikely to be a person with any love for wasting time or effort. I imagine him taking the time and expending the effort to complete the job at hand to the highest standards - but not more of either than necessary. If that's correct, then productivity /is/ a part of the mix.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
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Funny, there are a lot of people out there making really nice things without a Biesemeyer. My father, for example, did some really amazing work and never owned better than a benchtop saw.
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On Apr 7, 2:03 pm, Brian Henderson

Brian, Brian...can't you tell when I am being silly?
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Even so, I'd love to see something made by Maloof using only an ax. It'd be a novelty, sure, but probably an impressive novelty.
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All of this poppycock about 'craftsman", tools, etc. BS. Man was considered a craftsman from his ability to do something really nice and appealing from his brain, through his hands and then through the material he worked in. How did "craftsmen" come about 50-100-150, even 1000 yrs. ago with out electric tools?
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Where did I say that one needs electric tools in order to become a craftsman? A craftsman with quality tools will put out a better product than one without any quality tools. Is this hard?
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You are STILL (gasp) missing the point. "Quality tools" does NOT equal "better product".

It obviously is.
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It does, assuming we're talking about 'craftsmen'. Unless you want to start handicapping one of the craftsmen. A quality tool will never compensate for incompetence.
Okay. The craftsman (we agree that we are talking about 'craftsmen'?) without the table-saw will put out the same quality/straight cut as the guy who uses a Biesemeyer fence on a table saw.
The craftsman without the router table will make 5-piece doors with the same precision as the craftsman who has a router table.
Remember, they're both craftsmen.
Now, we give both of these craftsmen a table saw. One has a nice, true WW2 blade and a Biesemeyer. The other has a bent, rusty blade with a 1/4" run-out and a stick. Both are asked to cut a 16" x 16" square out of 2' x 2' slab of 2" oak.
I have a feeling that MY craftsman will cut a better piece.
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If both are craftsmen like you say, then the one with the rusty blade would replace his blade. He would realize he has run-out and fix it.
Both would cut just as accurately.
What makes you think that a cheap fence, correctly aligned, is any less capable than a Biesemeyer fence??

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I see, we're upgrading this comparison with more quality. He would make it a 'quality' device vs a rusty ol' device? He would 'change' the argument?

This is getting sillier by the minute, as I forgot to tell you that your craftsman has a bent shaft as well. You see, his wasn't a quality saw.

A Biesemeyer, or clone, *IS* a cheap fence.
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No. We are restoring the saw to it's original configuration (which would have been no rusty blade and no run-out).
It was a poor analogy to begin with.

Sillier indeed.

Cheap is relative.

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Stoutman wrote:

Aha! Something we can agree on! ... ALL of my relatives are cheap!
;-)
Bill
--
http://nmwoodworks.com/cube


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Bill in Detroit wrote:
> > Aha! Something we can agree on! ... ALL of my relatives are cheap!
If you can also hear them coming from 5 miles away, they are not only cheap, they are cheap and tight.
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

Well, they are usually pretty tight, but nothing they can't sleep off. 'Course, I stopped letting them sleep in the dog house because they kept giving the dog fleas.
Bill
--
http://nmwoodworks.com/cube


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Bill in Detroit wrote:
> > Well, they are usually pretty tight, but nothing they can't sleep off.
Had an uncle who was so tight he squeaked.
You could hear him coming from 5 miles away.
So cheap he never drank, even other peoples.
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

That ain't tight. My I had an Uncle who was so tight that when he played "pull my finger", nothing happened.
--
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Stoutman wrote:

If you stack the deck far enough you can always contrive a scenario in which all skill is in vain. That seems to be what your correspondent is attempting. But such scenarios generally have little relevance to the real world.
--
--
--John
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wrote: .

Then again, as the old argument goes, a craftsman would know how to get good results anyway... and never blame his tools. ;~)
John
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wrote:

The constant improvement in tools over the centuries would indicate that many craftsmen, at one point or another, dropped his arms and sighed: "If that $%^^%#$^ plane just had a longer shoe"..... "I could do so much better!!!" The evolution of tool quality indicates to me that craftsmen were always looking for a more accurate and better way. Improvement of productivity came along as a way to justify the expense of those quality tools. But it was the craftsmen who wanted and needed the quality tools to improve their work.
At NO time did I suggest that buying a quality tool will turn a nOOb into a craftsman.... but it WILL help him in putting out better results.

That is a whole different kettle of fish. If I blow a chord during a session, I would never blame my guitar... I would turn it into a feature. A craftsman knows how to cover his screw-ups better than a nOOb.
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