New Fine Woodworking magazin almost made me ill

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On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 06:49:39 +0000, snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

Sorry, a typo, it is FM200. Our computer room fits the constraints: it's pretty small - about 10 X 17 - and it's got it's own cooling with backup. There are a bunch of alternatives, actually, but each has constraints that make it less ideal than Halon.
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What ever happened to GHG-12? George Goble (spelling?) worked it up, blend of propane/butane/etc. Intended as a drop-in for R-12, for automotive use. People whined that it was flammable, but most cars have this whole fuel thing going on anyway, so...
Dave Hinz
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As far as making stuff cold goes, you can use just about any gas, straight propane works well and has been substituted for years, the problem is that gasses under pressure often leak, and flammable gasses tend to, well, *burn*, when they leak into very hot environments. Add to that the fact that and AC system repeatedly compresses the gas (raising its temperature notably) and you have a real disaster waiting to happen. While a dust collector explosion is virtually impossible, an explosion of an AC system charged with propane is a very real possibility and would have significant destructive capability, far beyond what you will get from any fuel system.
The propane mixtures are still often used in stationary applications where you don't have to worry about hot exhaust systems and suchlike setting leaking gasses on fire. As I understand it, propane actually has a greater capacity for cooling than does freon.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
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No. Halon is still used and approved for aircraft. I don't remember what type number it is though. But they still have their place. I sit on a handheld one one!
John

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Usually 1301, or a 1301/1211 'blend'.

It's still 'used and approved' for computer rooms, and other facilities, too. :)
The facts remain that it has been banned from manufacture since the early 1990s, that the *only* sources today are 'old stock' -- either manufactured before the ban, or 'reclaimed' from systems being de- commissioned. Even the hand-held ones that are on the market _today_ were actually manufactured a number of years ago.
*NOBODY* is building aircraft with in-frame fire-suppression systems using HALON these days, And havn't for a number of years. They all use one of the 'substitutes'.
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snipped-for-privacy@filc8046.fm.intel.com (Chris Richmond - MD6-FDC ~) writes:

Our computer room at work has an FM200 fire supression system, basically the new version of halon. The room is maybe 1000 square feet.
We had a very minor fire that cut the power and triggered the fire supression system. It cost over $12,000 to have the gas cylinder refilled.
I doubt any woodworker could afford one of these unless it was a commercial business.
Brian Elfert
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*WOW*! I had _no_ idea what refills go for these days. That's 10-20 times what it would have cost for HALON, back in the 'bad old days'.

yeah. 12 large pays for a _lot_ of water damage.
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snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) writes:

$12,000 was the total cost to repair the fire suppression after the fire, but refilling the tank was most of the expense.
The entire system had to be recertified. All of the heat/smoke detector heads had to be replaced because of the oily smoke caused by burning plastic.
Damage was very minor. One of piece of hardware was melted and burned internally. We got all of the equipment online 2.5 hours after the fire. The longest wait was for an electrician to reset the power.
Brian Elfert
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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 06:45:14 -0700, "Joe Wilding"

I'm not sure at that distance, but an X-10 type system might work. Maybe w/ a booster. You might call these guys: http://www.smarthome.com/index.html
No connection with them, etc.. I have not called them in a couple of years but back when I did they were very knowledgeable and helpful with free advice. They have some expensive stuff but press them for "affordable". Call them and just tell them the problem and see what they say. HTH. -- Igor
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for
sound
Joe,
No idea of what you consider affordable - but for "things like this" (I was going to say "toys" but didn't want to sound demeaning) I usually browse www.smarthome.com. See: http://www.smarthome.com/73902.html
But you're always going to be considering tradeoffs. Is the reliabilty of this system enough to suit my needs? Is the price right? Will the smoke detector get set off by dust (as mine does)?
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Did it say what the source of the fire was?
Joe Wilding wrote:

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I think it was something about wood dust in an electrical contactor or something (sounds kind of scary), but they didn't know for sure. Joe

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Also, an ounce of prevention.....Don't forget to keep fire extinguishers handy! Mount them up on the wall where they are easily accessible in an emergency, not buried under stuff in a corner. I keep 2 in my shop. Early this spring I cleaned some extra warm clothes out of my truck and put them on my workbench. Several days later i went into the shop, flipped on the 6 way, made a quick cut on something and went out back. About an hour later I smelled smoke, which is not all that unusual here, as many heat with wood. The smoke smell soon became very strong, and i became curious. I opened my shop door to find it completely filled with thick smoke. In a hurry, i ran in, felt around the wall (couldn't see anything) and grabbed the nearest extinguisher. I couldn't see any flames, so I opened the overhead door to let the smoke out and went in. What I found when the smoke started to clear is when I flipped on the six way, it also turned on the branding iron SWMBO bought me as a gift, but it was covered up by the clothes (specifically a few month old Carhartt jacket) I placed there a few days earlier. Burned the sleeve and one whole side of that jacket off and half of a flannel shirt lay smoldering in the driveway. I don't think the clothes ever had caught "fire", but did slowly smolder for quite a while. With the exception of the aforementioned, nothing else was damaged, not even the bench the clothes were on. Fortunately, I didn't need the extinguisher in this case, but at least it was there and ready if this problem had been worse. I learned a lesson from that day, and double check whats plugged in whenever I leave the shop, as it is my life! --dave

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Yeah, my shop light switch also engages all the outlets in the shop. When I turn out the lights, everything turns off. Now I just need to make sure I keep remembering to turn out the lights.
-Mike
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Mike writes:

You have one circuit that also includes your shop lights? I've got more than 45 115 volt outlets, at least six 230 volt, and three lighting circuits. I don't think I want all that on a single switch!
Charlie Self "Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing." Redd Foxx
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote in

Maybe he's got one of those big ol' double knife switches (or whatever they are called)? -- Thinking of something from one of the Frankenstein (early) movies?
Regards,
JT
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote in

And I KNOW, from experience, that, when a tool trips a breaker, I don't want to be standing there, in the dark, with still-spinning steel and/or carbide.
Lights and tools go on different breakers.
Patriarch
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Patriarch mentions:

Note the number of lighting circuits I mentioned. Three. And nothing else on any.
But you can get nailed anyway: over a decade ago, I had a basement shop in the City of Bedford. I was working on a project book, and made a habit of going in early because the city electric company (still owned by the city) seemed to me to make a habit of shutting things off almost every day. I figured I could plane and joint and tablesaw to my heart's content before 7 a.m. And be damned if twice they didn't pop the power before 6:30 a.m.!
Short interruptions, maybe 7 or 8 minutes, but in a one window shop, when it's still dark out, that is no fun.
Charlie Self "Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing." Redd Foxx
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote in

I saw that, Charlie. My comment related to the OP.
Power outages would seem to call for backup lighting on batteries, at least to some small degree.
Another thing for the to do list.
Patriarch
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Patriarch notes:

Yes. It makes me wonder how much it costs to set up one of those exit door floodlight kits you see in commercial buildings. But power outages around here aren't too much of a problem, usually hitting us at a time when sensible people are in the basement cowering under desks, or sitting in front of the woodstove speculating on when the snow/ice/rain will quit.
Charlie Self "Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing." Redd Foxx
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