New cyclone DC kit/blower web site

Hey gang,
I just put up a new web site yesterday with various DC topics as well as the kits I produce based on Bill Pentz's cyclone design, blower housings, motors, etc. You're invited to look around and tell me what y'all think of the content. It's a work in progress and more topics will be coming online as I get time to create them.
http://www.cleanshopair.com
Clarke
(Take "NOT" out of email address for direct communication)
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I don't nessasarily mean to flame Clarke, but when does spam become allowed here? Can Harbor Feight, Amazon, Lee Valley, Penn State and a zillion others post advertising here 'cuz it is related?? Clarkes posts stink slightly of spam to me as they are of commercial nature.
On the other hand if someone wanted to post a link to a commercial site in their signiture would it be ok?
Just wondering! If nobody has a problem with this, never mind! Just wanted to kick the bee hive!. Greg
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wrote:

clarke spams the wreck on a regular basis. I don't think he's ever posted a non spam post here. that's why he's in my killfile...
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It's all too easy to get a hair-trigger over "spam" these days.
Clarke's posts are _not_ Spam, for Spam has a formally recognised BI level (TINC), and his posts are well under it. In the midst of a flurry of real spam and BAD's nipples, this sort of post is the last thing I've got to worry about. When it comes down to it, "spam" is "that stuff which annoys you".
I _like_ commercial posts to rec.woodworking, within limits. Not too many of them, interesting (i.e. varied and genuinely novel content) and relevant. There's a certain level of (I hate to say it) hypocrisy about commercial postings here sometimes - Sellers "whom we like" can post a blatant ad, I can talk about specific bandsaw models with impunity, but an identical post about the same bandsaw _from_its_maker_ would attract flames. Now why is this ? I'd like to see more manufacturers and vendors talking about their products. Provided there's some actual content involved, not just a re-hashed catalogue (that's what the web is for), then a good posting is a good posting, no matter whether it's commercial in origin or amateur.
I come here to talk about woodworking. Someone's new product to help me do it is just as relevant as planing techniques.
As a pointer to potential advert posters, I'd suggest the following. Maybe we might even want to discuss and codify similar ideas and then clarify the group's charter.
- Catalogues and product listings belong on the web - it's just the best place for them. Don't post lists of products to newsgroups.
- If we want to find your site, we'll use Google. You don't need to wave your arms in the air just to remind us you're there.
- Opening a new site ? Then why not tell us about it. That's news. But can you turn this snippet into something that's worthwhile for the wreck's readers to read ? A new maker of hand-made chisels is interesting, yet another eBay drop-shipper isn't.
- Don't repeat yourself. Maybe it was justifiable to make that post (whatever it was) once. Repeating it makes it unacceptable, because just the repetition alone is enough.
- It's easier to annoy people permanently than it is to recover their goodwill afterwards. Be minimal at first, because the risk of stepping over the line is large and the costs are greater.
- If you have news, tell us some news. We like news. We like shiny new toys. "Dog Bites Man" is not news though. Nor is a hammer maker telling us they make hammers. Titanium mjolnirs for a dollar, that's news. "Now in blue" isn't.
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Andy Dingley offered a sensible viewpoint on commercial posts, snipped for brevity, but I wanted to chime in, "Hear, hear!"
Cheers!
Jim
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: Hey gang,
: I just put up a new web site yesterday with various DC topics as well as : the kits I produce based on Bill Pentz's cyclone design, blower housings, : motors, etc. You're invited to look around and tell me what y'all think : of the content.
1) Half of your prices are missing.
2) An air compressor usually runs for a short time, then turns off. Your motors are rated compressor duty. Oneida Air's motors are continuous duty, which is what I want in a dust collection system.
3) You list no information concerning the airflow in a real workshop situation.
4) You list no info on the most critical aspect of a DC system, which is what percentage of very fine dust is captured by the system.
Compare your website and its info to Oneida's, and yours comes up sorely lacking.
    -- Andy Barss
. It's a work in progress and more topics will be coming : online as I get time to create them.
: http://www.cleanshopair.com
: Clarke
: (Take "NOT" out of email address for direct communication)
--
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Andy Barss
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wrote:

well as

housings,
think
But, some prices are there. And, Clarke did state he just got the website on-line; there are also plenty of indicators that development is still on-going. Perhaps you could give him a chance to refine it?

Motors listed on Oneida's site aren't any better than the Leeson motor which Clarke is recommending for his system. Look at the full-load current to see what performance the motor is actually capable of delivering.

workshop
Airflow (as well as the corresponding pressure drop variable) is dependant upon the system ducting and hookups. There are many variables which prevent any guaranteed performance for all situations. This is something that Oneida and other vendors won't tell you. It helps them sell their product.

which is

This characteristic is a function of the filter element. Clarke may not be selling filters yet, but he'll give you some sources for very good ones.

sorely
Sorely lacking is a bit harsh, considering what Clarke is offering for the average woodworker. I am now building one of Clarke's cyclones. I am also using his recommendations along with those of Bill Pentz, who Clarke has recognized on his website. It's good to have this kind of research and help available for those who want to build a top-performance dust collection system with a tight budget. If you try and get similar performance from Oneida (or other vendors), you'll spend 3-4 times as much. You could also spend a lot more, if you need dust collection in a production shop. Check the following links for the Oneida 5HP system, it's probably the closest one Oneida sells that is comparable to the Pentz/Echols system design.
http://www.oneida-air.com/systems/5hv/5hvconfigs.htm http://www.oneida-air.com/pdf/system%20price%20sheet%202004.pdf
Hope this helps, John Sellers
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: But, some prices are there. And, Clarke did state he just got the : website on-line; there are also plenty of indicators that development : is still on-going. Perhaps you could give him a chance to refine it?
If someone witha startup business posts a link to a new website, I would recomm3end he lists the prices for his stuff. That's all.
:> 2) An air compressor usually runs for a short time, then turns off. :> Your motors are rated compressor duty. Oneida Air's motors are :> continuous duty, which is what I want in a dust collection system.
: Motors listed on Oneida's site aren't any better than the Leeson motor : which Clarke is recommending for his system.
My original point remains.
:> 3) You list no information concerning the airflow in a real : workshop :> situation.
: Airflow (as well as the corresponding pressure drop variable) is : dependant upon the system ducting and hookups. There are many : variables which prevent any guaranteed performance for all situations. : This is something that Oneida and other vendors won't tell you. It : helps them sell their product.
Sure, but he could at least post this sort of comparative info:
http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparemain.htm http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/sidebyside.htm http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparisonchart.htm
: Sorely lacking is a bit harsh, considering what Clarke is offering for : the average woodworker. I am now building one of Clarke's cyclones. : I am also using his recommendations along with those of Bill Pentz, : who Clarke has recognized on his website. It's good to have this kind : of research and help available for those who want to build a : top-performance dust collection system with a tight budget. If you : try and get similar performance from Oneida (or other vendors), you'll : spend 3-4 times as much.
You could also spend a lot more, if you need : dust collection in a production shop. Check the following links for : the Oneida 5HP system, it's probably the closest one Oneida sells that : is comparable to the Pentz/Echols system design.
: http://www.oneida-air.com/systems/5hv/5hvconfigs.htm : http://www.oneida-air.com/pdf/system%20price%20sheet%202004.pdf
But the 2 or 3HP Oneida system is just fine for a recreational hobbiest. And I doubt you could build one from Clarke's kit for 1/3 to 1.4 the price of those.
    -- Andy Barss
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Andrew Barss wrote:

He listed the prices for everything that he has available for sale. So where's the beef?

What point is that? If Oneida's using the same motor then how is it "better"? Regardless, if you want a different motor for God's sake use a different motor. You're the one building the thing, not Clarke. You can use a 20,000 horesepower gas turbine if you want to.

Andrew, I think you have some fundamental misconceptions about what Clarke is offering.
Forget Clarke's site entirely and go to <http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm . Clarke is offering precut sheet metal parts for one variant of that system, and a welded up blower housing.
All the information you want is on the designer's site.
As for the motors, Leeson will be happy to sell you a different motor if you don't like the one that Bill recommends. Given that it's a 5 horse motor rated on the nameplate for continuous duty, that it's derated to 3 horsepower by the design of the cyclone and blower, and that Leeson sells the same basic design as a general purpose 3 horsepower continuous duty motor, I think your concerns are a bit overblown.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
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: He listed the prices for everything that he has available for sale. So : where's the beef?
No, he didn't.
: What point is that? If Oneida's using the same motor then how is it : "better"?
Um, it's not using the same motor.
:> :> 3) You list no information concerning the airflow in a real :> : workshop :> :> situation. :> :> : Airflow (as well as the corresponding pressure drop variable) is :> : dependant upon the system ducting and hookups. There are many :> : variables which prevent any guaranteed performance for all situations. :> : This is something that Oneida and other vendors won't tell you. It :> : helps them sell their product. :> :> Sure, but he could at least post this sort of comparative info: :> :> http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparemain.htm :> http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/sidebyside.htm :> http://www.oneida-air.com/testing/comparison/comparisonchart.htm :>
Any response to this?
:> : Sorely lacking is a bit harsh, considering what Clarke is offering for :> : the average woodworker. I am now building one of Clarke's cyclones.
God for you. I'd like to hear, after you finish, how much time it took, what it ended up costing, and how the system performs under the criteria used by Oneida in their posted specs. :> :> But the 2 or 3HP Oneida system is just fine for a recreational hobbiest. :> And I doubt you could build one from Clarke's kit for 1/3 to 1.4 the price :> of those.
: Andrew, I think you have some fundamental misconceptions about what Clarke : is offering.
You didn't address the point I made above: Clarke's kit does not offer the same performance as an Oneida system for one-third to one-quarter the price.
And I don't think I have any misconceptions about Clarke's system. It's a kit, with unknown performance, which costs about as much (when you fill in the unprovided parts) as a Oneida system which has known specs.
: Forget Clarke's site entirely and go to : <http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm . Clarke is offering : precut sheet metal parts for one variant of that system, and a welded up : blower housing.
AND a claim that his system beats Oneida on price and performance, with zero hard evidence to back that up.
: As for the motors, Leeson will be happy to sell you a different motor if you : don't like the one that Bill recommends. Given that it's a 5 horse motor : rated on the nameplate for continuous duty
No, it's rated for compressor duty.
, that it's derated to 3 : horsepower by the design of the cyclone and blower
I have no idea what this means.
, and that Leeson sells : the same basic design as a general purpose 3 horsepower continuous duty : motor, I think your concerns are a bit overblown.
the SAME motor? I don't think so.
    -- Andy Barss
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Andrew Barss wrote:

For what specific item, that he has in stock for delivery, and for which he will accept orders, does he not show a price?

And of course you've found out what motor Oneida is using and compared model numbers from the Leeson site.

SEE BILL'S SITE. How many times do you have to be told this before it sinks in?

Ended up costing about the same as a 2 horse Oneida for me. As for how it performs, I'm sorry, but I don't have the instrumentation to tell you in detail what airflows it provides etc, all I can say with certainty is that it sucks, extremely well.

That depends on you. If you're a good scrounger you may very well be able to build Bill's system, for which Clarke provides some parts, for 1/3 the price of an equivalent Oneida. If you're not then Bill's 5 horsepower system is going to cost about the same as a 2 horsepower Oneida.

Yes, you do have misconceptions. IT'S NOT CLARKE'S SYSTEM for one thing. It's BILL's system for which Clarke provides some parts.

I do not even find the word "Oneida" on Clarke's site. Could you please link the page on which he makes this claim?

I have one sitting in front of me. The name plate does not contain the word "compressor" anywhere. In the box marked "Duty" it contains "CONT.".

Well then perhaps you should not be berating people who _do_ know what it means.

When you _know_ something get back to us.

--
--John
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I don't know about others here but I seldom run my DC for extended lengths of time. Yes, I would prefer a continuous duty motor but for most hobbiest, compressor duty should be just fine. Actually in my SILs frame shop (auto) his compressors often run longer than my DC ever does.
BRuce
Andrew Barss wrote:

--
---

BRuce

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