... and how do you separate this as being any different from being
engaged in a conversation with a passenger in the automobile? That also is
an active vs. passive activity. Do you really want to go down the path of
making the car a sterile environment?
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
Big differences really. If I'm listening to the radio or talking with a
passenger, I can just tune them out or not reply when my attention is needed
on the road. Phone conversations though, tend to take more concentration
and the phone user is less likely to mentally swap brain power to the road
ahead while they are giving tech support, taking an order, getting
The passenger may even see the upcoming traffic, the sudden turn, the big
splash from a truck and actually shut up knowing you need to concentrate on
driving. The phone caller does not see any of that.
Many of us look at our cars as our private space to do as we please. Eat
breakfast, read the paper,shave, make sales calls, all while trying to
drive. Some of these tasks take more attention than others. Traffic and
road conditions vary too, but not everyone puts away the phone when they are
US phone companies will not give up their call records, but a study was done
inAustrailia that showed an increase in accident rates for phone users.
This was published in the Hartford Courant a couple of months ago. I don't
think they should be banned, but drivers must use a lot of caution and
common sense and know when to put the phone away.
I drove a medical transport van for six years around a large-ish Midwestern
city. (Non-emergency. No lights. No siren).
I've personally witnessed people blowing right through red lights and stop
signs while they were obviously engaged in telephone conversations. I saw
one lady that drove up over the curb(!), and the look of surprise when she
found herself in the median was priceless. I've seen people drift across
lanes on high-speed expressways, obviously more engaged in their
conversation rather than driving. I've seen any number of near collisions
(and a couple of actual collisions) when an unexpected showdown occurs and
following drivers were slow to react.
Any number of times, I've personally witnessed one of the MOST dangerous
situations, and that's someone stopped at red light, totally engaged in
conversation to the point that they never notice when the light changes
green. They sit, 'till someone blasts their horn, then they, involuntarily,
slam the gas pedal down, charging across/into the intersection, without ever
looking to see if that green light is now yellow, or even red.
When I started driving the van, I would chatter on my cell phone as much as
anyone. Slowly, it became apparent that me that I (a trained, specially
licensed, highly experienced driver) was every bit as distracted by the cell
phone as anyone else. I no longer talk on the phone and drive at the same
time. If the conversation is important to make the phone call, it's
important enough for me to give it my full attention, and pull out of
If the conversation is not important enough to pull out of traffic, it's not
important enough to have in the first place. (Part of the problem, I'd
surmise, is that you'll never be able to predict in any conversation, when
something is said that literally demands your full attention, for whatever
reason. I'd also advance the idea that with the increase in just plain
scary drivers, there has been a corresponding increasing in frustrated
drivers, i.e. road rage.)
And yes, I've seen people that were also distracted by....
Changing CD's/or radio stations...
Reading papers across their steering wheel....
Putting on makeup...
Arguing with kids...especially in the back seat.
Cleaning their glasses...blind
But for sheer volume of poor/dangerous driving practices...nothing (with the
possible exception of driving drunk) rivals the cell phone. People talking
on a cell phone are every bit as imparted as a drunk driver.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:40:15 -0400, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
How much have accident rates risen in the last few years?
I drop my kids off at school daily and I estimate that at least a
third if not more of the drivers are on their cell phones throughout
the whole process. (my question is "who do you call at 7:00 in the
morning for a long chat?") If driving while on your cell phone is as
dangerous as all the research indicates we should be seeing dramatic
increases in accident rates.
No harm, no foul.
I don't have quick access to those statistics, but I am guessing that
if there really was a significant increase it would be all over the
news. Human beings really are remarkably good at multi-tasking.
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and
bring something to kill"
I don't have access to the stats either .. but I've seen a couple of
pretty well controlled experimental studies. The one that sticks out in
my mind was done with drivers on a closed track, and sensors to monitor
head and eye position.
The drivers did the course with no/minimal distraction, then while
talking casually on the phone, then while being asked over the phone to
do some very simple calculations.
The difference in awareness (by virtue of eye movement) was pretty
My takeaway? There's alot of 'close calls' (pun intended) caused by cell
phone use. (And other distraction, too -- radio, kids in the backseat,
Me, -- I don't talk on the cell while driving; and since my safety
depends at least somewhat on the ability of those driving around me -- I
don't think they should be either.
On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:59:18 +0000 (UTC), John Thomas
Controlled tests are all very fine, but if they don't actually
translate into the real world they don't mean anything. I'll go out on
a limb here and guess that the people who are badly distracted by
talking on the cell phone are simply substituting one distraction for
another. They would be just as distracted if they were in a sterile
driving environment with no outside interference - they'd just be
focusing their attention on the nice load of QSWO in the back of the
truck instead of their driving.
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and
bring something to kill"
I hope to God that I'M using a tablesaw at 70.
Father is still using one at 72, and I'll admit that he doesnt' have
much stamina. But he can still rip timber. Just not much at a time.
I'm planning on being a woodworking geezer into my 80's.
My Dad will turn 82 this next month. Been living alone since his
wife passed away in Jan.2001. This last June, he calls and tells me to
come get his tools, he has sold his house and is moving into an assisted
living facility. So I rent a big van and drive out to Arizona from Iowa
and get him settled and the van loaded with all his tools. Now let me
tell you that this van is squatting when we are finished loading it, it
Two weeks ago I get this letter from my Dad telling me he has found
love again with a woman about 60 years old living in the same facility
and they have a lot in common, been dating up a storm, blah, blah, blah.
Now I just know that they are gonna get married, settle down, buy a
house together and Dad will want his tools back.
Well, I will have room in *my* shop again.
You need to get upwards towards a thousand dollars ready to go. IMO Grizzly
is the best bang for the buck, right now, but that can be legitimately
debated. Watch the fence. The Shop Fox fences are adequate, and will give
good service, but if you could scrape together a bit more money, I'd upgrade
to Biesemeyer or a one of the clones.
Hint: I have the 1023ZX. It ships at right at a 500 pounds. The sheer
mass of that saw dampens vibration, and allows even smoother cuts. However,
as long as you jump to the "cabinet" saw nomenclature, you're probably going
to get better performance over the "contractor" set up. That said, the
high end contractor's saws will give essentially the same performance as a
good cabinet saw, but they end up costing essentially the same, too.
Hint: Figure out where you're going to set that saw and then take the time
to stabilize and level it perfectly. You can buy trolleys to move them
around, (I have one), but a solid, well stabilized saw really is the goal.
Hint: The saw blade is a limiting factor on any saw. The better the blade,
the better the cut, and while it's not always a direct relationship
(!!!!!!), generally the more expensive the blade the better the cut.
Matching the blade to the cuts to be made, is worthwhile, too. I have one
super-dooper odd ball blade, specifically designed to cut plastics and
melamine. It works marvously on those materials. (It's some kind of triple
bevel setup. With care feeding of stock, I can get perfectly smooth results
with little or no chipping.) Doesn't handle everyday crosscut/rip duties
worth squat. The top line blades are probably going to exceed $100 in cost.
You can get by with less and I certainly do, but I keep one or two of the
top line blades in reserve when the job calls for it.
Hint: I like blade stabilizers. They're cheap.
Hint: The best fences invariably lock down, ONLY in the front. That way,
you can add extensions to the outfeed, at a later time. The Shop Fox locks
in both the front and back and while my SF fence always locks parallel and
straight, it's still a PITA because I can't figure a way to make a outfeed
extension without some serious work.
http://www.woodpeck.com/tslssystem.html This is a helluva of a system, but
it still suffers from the same shortcomings as the Shop Fox fence, i.e.
front and back lock. On the other hand, I have a Incra miter gauge that is
worth every penny, I paid for it.
http://www.biesemeyer.com/home_fence/index.htm I'm going out on a limb
here, but this is probably the "gold standard" in fences, right now.
(Alternate opinions are certainly possible here. In fact, I'd welcome some
While I don't know where, there *has* to be some kind of commercial
relationship between Shop Fox and Grizzly.
It's free advise, so you know what it's worth......nothing.
The standard SF fence that came with my 1023SL locks only
in the front. There were discussions here about the differences
between the "standard" and "deluxe" fence. IIRC, most felt
the standard was better in that the deluxe was too fussy to
keep right. I am very happy with the standard - it is
rock solid and true.
I didn't realize that there was a Shop Fox fence that clamped in the
back, but indeed some of the saws in the catalog have a dual clamping
Most of the Grizzly table saws ship with the Shop Fox Classic or the
Aluma Classic fence. These are Bies clones that lock only in the front.
The Aluma Classic came on my G0444Z contractor saw. Thoe only
difference that I can see is the material on the face. Let's face it,
part of the reason the Bies is so good is its simplicity, which makes
it easy to copy. I'd bet good money that the Shop Fox copies are every
bit as good as the real Bies fences. The guide and clamping mechanism
is extremely solid, and it can be tuned to perfection. What else do you
Don't let a few opinions turn you away from a fence that locks down front
and back. I own an Excalibur that locks down both sides and I'll match it
cut for cut any day with a Bies or clone of a Bies fence. Bies fences just
happen to be more popular. That doesn't for one second mean that all others
are no good. Go and decide for yourself.
My Excalibur is easy to set up, maintains its accuracy quite well and
doesn't interfere in the least with an outfeed table. The space need for the
1" wide back rail doesn't effect outfeed to a table at all. There's
advantages and disadvantages (small ones in both cases) to both types.
The original observation was mine. If you'll re-read the whole thing,
you'll see that I commented that my Shop Fox fence always locked down
straight and parallel, which is what it's suppose to do. I have absolutely
no complaint about the fence itself.
My observation was that with any fence, (I've ever seen) that locked in
both the front and back, it is extremely difficult to build extension tables
out the back of the saw. With my fence, there with simply have to be a six
inch gap between the saw and any extension table I might create.
(I was unaware that Shop Fox, at least now, has a fence that locks only in
My observation was that I wish I had popped for a few extra dollars and
bought the Biesemeyer......
Hint: You DON'T need to spend a thousand dollars on your saw.
Get a contractors saw with a CAST IRON TOP. I got mine for around 300 bucks
americano. Works like a champ.
My shop and some older projects:
I have to rethink my original answer. I think the others are saying the
same as well. There is a huge difference between another contractor saw,
and a cabinet saw, and your price range is a little low for a cabinet. I
thought it was close to a 1023 Grizzly, but my memory is getting weak. At
that price you are still looking at contractor style saw. There are plenty
of options out there, and Grizzly is still one of them. Grizzly does seem
to prevail even more when it comes to cabinet saws.
I would use what you have now and save for a cabinet saw, or look for a
used one local. For your price range you could get a decent used cabinet
saw. FWIIW cabinet saws always seem to have a higher resale value if you
plan to bail.
If you are really going to use the thing, a cabinet saw is the way to go.
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