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More Pics I do appreciate all the thought everyone has given this. click to open the full size version of the image
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On 8/11/2013 4:44 PM, Karen wrote:

Not too much thinking needed... :)
The above shows that the base apron actually is solid but with piece of veneered bending ply over it--it's clearly visible as the bright vertical line. The ply is probably 3/32" overall while the solid is just under 3/4". The overall thickness is probably just about 3/4" on the nose.
Also while the combination of a little focus and the stain on the edge of the top isn't good enough to really tell for sure about it, one can also clearly see the glue joint of the moulding around the top and the angle from just below the top is sufficient to show there's a slight gap there where the top is actually just a little "proud" (overhangs just a smidge) of the apron.
Again, see the previous comments on my proposed fixes...one thing that might actually play into your favor if you decide to try the banding route is that little gap--if it's open as it appears, you might be able to get an edge behind it and thus not have to worry about the getting it flush against a top and having any gap. That presupposes a piece wide enough to cover the apron, of course. That appears to be right 4" exposed; I don't know of any precisely that width; here's a link to a peel-n-stick 12" wide in either 4- or 8-ft lengths. Not sure your table diameter, you can get three 4" strips from the 12" width and with care a butt seam will not show badly.
If you want to keep the all-wood appearance that's about your only option.
<http://www.bairdbrothers.com/Band-It-Real-Wood-Red-Oak-Veneer-Facing-P740.aspx>
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On 8/11/2013 10:31 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: ...

There's nothing that wrong w/ the pictures--they're not perfect but certainly good enough -- and the first were all that were really needed.
It's clear it's veneer; it's clear the substrate is luan-like under the oak and the last ones made it completely clear it's a solid wood apron w/ a thin bending-ply veneered surface layer over it. There's nothing more needed.
The previous as I responded earlier, clearly show both the sanding through of the veneer and further proof of veneer by the small missing piece that exposes both the veneer edge along the break and the substrate underneath.
There's nothing more to see here folks, move along... :)
--


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On 8/12/2013 6:12 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Don't need much detail -- surely you can see the difference between the end grain and the bright vertical stripe on the left that shows the veneer ply? That's all that you need for it.
And, the line of the glue joint between the table top and the edging mould is clear.
--


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"Karen" wrote:

What these pics show is the need for an executive meeting of the Refurbishing Committee of the Furniture Restoration Society of America.
This meeting should take place at the earliest opportunity and address the following issues.
Since is abundantly clear that the table apron contains a veneer layer and that aggressive sanding has caused spots to be worn thru to the substrate necessitating replacement of the veneer layer, the Refurbishing Committee should examine this option completely and report back to the Furniture Restoration Society of America within 30 days.
If the Refurbishing Committee determines that veneer replacement is not an option, then applying a coat of paint is an alternate; however, it would probably be a less than desirable alternate.
These findings should also be reported to the Restoration Society of America.
SFWIW, when it is necessary to conduct executive committee meetings, I call them for 07:00 hours while taking a shower.
Fewer arguments and shorter meetings that way.
YMMV
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

The OP is probably curious whether the rest of the veneer must sanded off in order to proceed. Surely, sanding it all might be an economical source of family fun. But does the RC have any rules about that (the sanding)?
Bill
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"Bill" wrote:

Those are issues to be addressed by the committee.
Lew
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wrote in message

Thank you,Karen. I wish they were sharper but they are sharp enough to show that the apron is, indeed, solid oak as I thought originally.
Naturally, dpb now agrees that the apron is solid but asserts that it has a piece of "bending ply" over it (which would mean it isn't solid oak). That is certainly possible but I have to ask myself why any manufacturer would make the apron out of solid oak and then stick a piece of oak veneer ply on top of it. I could understand - maybe - applying veneer to it but not ply. For example, if the maker wanted the apron to be "tiger oak" he might have applied a veneer of that over the apron. (Tiger oak is oak that displays a distinctive grain due to the way it is cut from the log; because the apron is circular, it would not be possible to have all of it display that grain pattern if the apron was sawn out of tiger oak boards; bent, yes, sawn, no).
He also cites the "bright vertical line" as proof of his thesis. Again, that is possible. It is also possible - probable,IMO - that the "bright vertical line" is just a reflection from your flash. That edge curves inward slightly, as shown in your first set of photos. Since it curves inward, the edge will be more perpendicular to your camera and will reflect light more than the other areas. FWIW, I was a photographer for more than 50 years.
He also thinks he sees a glue line between the top and its edge molding. I can't see that. I *DO* see something on the bottom surface of the table that wraps around to the back edge of the molding but I have no idea what it is or what purpose it serves. If that is what he sees as a glue line,he is wrong.
Finally, he keeps suggesting you apply new veneer as a fix. It would be possible to do that but it would look a fright without a lot of prep work. The apron has dings and nicks...those would need to be filled/repaired; that edge with the "bright vertical line" would need work so that it didn't curve inward as veneer doesn't bend well in that direction and won't bend at all in two (which you would need). Both the prep work and actual veneering take a fair measure of skill and I wouldn't suggest it to you.
I wish I could tell you unequivocally how to procede but I cannot; the photos just aren't sharp enough to be 100% sure. However, you should be able to tell by close examination of the apron edge whether or not the solid wood has any kind of facing applied to it. If it has not, make the face good and varnish; if it has, your best option would be paint. Paint could look very good there, either painting all of it or just the top part, down to but not including the kerf, leaving the bottom varnished.
--

dadiOH
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On 8/12/2013 8:03 AM, dadiOH wrote:

If the apron weren't veneered, what in the world is the vertical grain she sanded through to doing there????? Did this manufacturer now supposedly use jointed "solid oak" but orient pieces alternating 90 degrees going around????
You're usually pretty good, but you're beating a dead horse on this one.
The vertical "line" is actually a vertical strip and measures right at 3/32" thick.
Besides the glue joint being evident at the mould-top junction, the grain is wrong--it's end on the mould; not on the top.
As for the pressure-sensitive banding veneer application -- as I described in my first exposition, whatever she does she needs to use a sanding filler and to fill the little depressions and grain first. She'll need to do that even if she takes the expedient way out and paints or uses a solid stain to disguise the grain differences she now has. Or, she could just sand it all down to the surface of the substrate but that's a lot of work for no real gain.
The PSA-backed veneer is will easily bend to that curvature and isn't particularly difficult to place -- start it at the top with a straight edge of the table top to guide against won't be any real trick at all.
I'll retire now but I've as much time woodworking and wife did the reclaim "antiques" and refinishing as you have photo'ing and I've seen too much veneer sanded through and similar construction too often to be fooled by just a little blurriness in a photo... :)
She might as well know what it is she's actually looking at as opposed to not. And I'm certain I've told her that.
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On 8/12/2013 8:47 AM, dpb wrote: ...

I missed what was apparently your first response -- w/ the multiple threads that wasn't too hard. :(
I see what lead you astray is that you apparently interpreted the first pictures as showing vertical sanding scratches and the dark areas as remaining original finish instead of as the veneer substrate cross-grain and the heavier absorption of her applied stain in those areas. W/ that as a starting point, then I can see your continuing down that road.
But, the clues that that isn't the case are in the shape and the shading of the "scratch" pattern overall. It is tapers to nothing very gradually to the right and is in a general rounded nose. There's just no way in which she could have produced those scratches by vertically sanding in that pattern w/ the table top in place and the shading is the result of the veneer thickness from the point it was sanded through entirely until it gradually has sufficient thickness to effectively soak up an even amount of stain.
It's a classic case -- if you've got an old veneered flat panel hollow door around that isn't doing anything useful, sand on it in one spot for a while and see that you can reproduce exactly that pattern and coloring by sanding through the surface veneer.
--



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If you are talking to me, yes that is the way I interpreted them. And I still do, sorta. I agree she sanded through a veneer, don't believe she made the scratch marks and I don't believe they are grain on a ply substrate. Consider...
There are two basic ways to make a curved board: bend it or saw it.
Bending... 1. One can bend a solid board. I sure wouldn't try to make that apron that way, don't know if a manufacturer would or not, doubt it.
2. Laminate it from several thinner boards. Easy to do, this wasn't laminated according to the edge of the apron.
3. Make multiple kerfs across it leaving a thickness that will bend easily. This *could *have been done that way, kerfs would show on top and bottom of apron. The table top would cover the top ones but the kerfs on the apron bottom would need to be covered in some manner. A solid piece could have been applied to the bottom; the whole area below the decorative, horizontal kerf could have been glued on to cover them but - judging from her not so great photo of the apron edge - I don't think so.
Sawing 1. Numerous chords could have been bandsawed out and then joined to make the apron
2. Numerous rectangular boards could have been joined into a polygon and that polygon then sawed to round. ____________________________
I think the thing was sawed. With either sawing method, there are two things that need to be addressed. The first is that the round edge is going to have tool marks and that it will need (probably) tweaking to get a nice, smooth curve. To do that, I'd use a belt sander with coarse paper and I'd hold it vertically; if I were making several - or if I were a manufacturer - I'd rig some way to afix the rough apron to a turn table and rotate it against a fixed belt sander. That's how I think the vertical scratch marks were made.
People kept talking about the vertical marks being the grain in a piece of lauan plywood. I could not fathom why someone would make a nice apron and then stick on a piece of plywood. I still can't but I *can* see the need for a piece of *veneer* because the second thing that needs fixing is that there are numerous joints that would show; additionally, the grain of the joined pieces would be less than pretty (unless they had a lot of lumber available and went to extraordinary lengths to select the pieces to be joined, a circumstance I strongly doubt). To fix that, I'd stick on a piece of veneer. No need to remove the belt sander scratches, they will be covered up, all that is needed is a smooth surface.
If I were Karen, I would still try scraping...with care, the scratch marks could be removed at the expense of less than a great curve in their area. The difficulty would come from not cutting theough more of the (probably) very thin veneer and exposing more. There is always going to be a difference in appearance between the original surface and the cut through area; whether or not that is acceptable, only she can decide. If not, there is always paint.
--

dadiOH
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I have some difficultly with the idea that the outside of the apron is veneered. Veneering a compound curve is _difficult_.
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On 8/13/2013 3:27 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Tell that to Lloyd Loar ...
--
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On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 20:27:58 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Most of these cheap mass produced tables were assembled with plywood bands that were produced in curved plywood presses, steam bent solid wood aprons are available for higher end stuff.
basilisk
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On Tue, 13 Aug 2013 16:21:51 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:

Well, I worked for a considerable time in a plant that made such tables. This was a smaller scale plant making around 300 various size round pedestal tables a month, along with a fair amount of custom and one off work.
As a side note, most of these tables went into Houston, TX markets.
On tables that were a standard industry size, 54",48", 42", 36", the bands were preformed plywood semicircles installed in two pieces. The arcs were formed as the plywood was made, bought them by the truckload. Typically, the veneer was about .03" thick.
On odd size tables smaller bands were made out of solid, glued up octagons, left in straight sided segments, I never saw one glued up and cut round with a band saw, although it could be done easy enough.
Larger tabl;es 6 ft and up were sometimes done in 12 sided solid wood glue ups.
basilisk
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On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 06:34:44 -0500, basilisk wrote:

I'll add that this plywood apron material, looked like any other 7 ply hardwood plywood, with inside laminations of poplar, gum, cottonwood, etc.

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On 8/13/2013 3:16 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

Not and having the top in place...she doesn't have the access to sand in that direction and leave such uniform large scratches -- and, besides, she already had confirmed that the surface was left smooth.
As for my thoughts, I'm 100% convinced -- I've seen too many previous pieces to think anything else.

Of course, there is if you've seen dozens of cases where folks have done the same thing before.
The point is that one can reproduce the characteristic patterns easily w/ only a very cheap substitute...
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