MLCS 1/4" T&G Set - OK for 1/4" MDF panels?

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I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4" Poplar wit h 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G router bit set:
Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_t ongue_groove.html
The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the ability t o move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles, while the #7841 wo uld force me to center the T&G. It is my understanding that 1/4" MDF is rea lly 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood which is less.
I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had domestic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably be less.
The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels they car ry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by and measure the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your thoughts on the issue first.
Thanks!
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On 1/23/15 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Do you have a decent table saw? I got the exact set of bits you're looking at when they were on sale because I planned to make shaker doors for our kitchen. In the meantime I picked up a decent hybrid table saw and those bit have sat in the tool chest ever since.
The table saw is the way to go for that joint and will be much faster, easier, and more efficient use of horsepower. I would spend that money on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw. It will be a multi-tasker.
This Freud is a supreme blade for the money... <(Amazon.com product link shortened)> If you want to spend about double that for a Cadillac blade, Forrest sells their WWII in a flat grind.
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On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:00:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

You said: "I would spend that money on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw."
Then you posted a link to a blade with a 0.126 kerf.
Was that Freud blade recommendation totally separate from the 1/4" kerf blade suggestion?
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On 1/23/15 11:09 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Oops, sorry... brainfart. In my mind, I was thinking a single dado blade or a box joint bit, like this... <(Amazon.com product link shortened)>
In any case, it's everything I stated still applies to a regular, flat ground, full kerf rip blade. Even if you make two passes, it's much more efficient than a router table. PLUS, you get the benefit of having this great blade (or dado set) for other cuts/joints like tenons, rabbets, etc.
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On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:31:09 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

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On 1/23/15 1:27 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

And check out that article Karl posted!
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On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 2:30:41 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

Hmmm...could you be anymore specific than "that article Karl posted". Karl posts a lot of stuff. ;-)
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On 1/23/15 2:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Youbetcha....
http://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/101/101-stubtenon.pdf
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On 1/23/15, 10:31 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

(Amazon.com product link shortened)22111078&sr=1-1&keywords=freud+box+joint+saw+blades
and it works very well, perfectly flat cuts. I end up using it for all my grooving cuts where I need something wider than I can do with a 1/8" rip blade an multiple cuts.
-BR
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On 1/23/2015 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

IME, most 1/4" mdf available locally is actually 1/4".
Just shop around until you can do an onsite verification prior to purchase.
In the other hand, instead of a router bit set:
Stub tenon joint on a table saw:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShop327KitchenRefresh2013?noredirect=1#5895705024054047890
One way to cut them (picked because downloadable):
http://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/101/101-stubtenon.pdf
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On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:44:52 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:

1 would force me to center the T&G. It is my understanding that 1/4" MDF is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood which is less.

the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your thoughts on the i ssue first.

Well, at least I know what my kitchen will look like when it's done! I'm st arting with the same stick built cabinets (just more of them) and building the same doors. My drawers fronts will match the doors as opposed to be pla in like yours.
Thanks for the visual!

But what will I do with the router table I just bought? ;-)
OK, 2 questions:
1 - Your panels appear to be centered in the frames. Is that what you recom mend or is the placement based on the look that the client (me) is going fo r?
2 - I don't have a stacked dado set, but I will buy one if the dado blade I have won't do the job. Never having done a stub tenon on a table saw, I'm not sure if the dado blade shown below will do a good enough job. Obviously some testing is in order.
This isn't my exact blade, but it's similar. Mine is a Craftsman that I pic ked up at a garage sale a few years ago. Instead of the single blade normal ly associated with a wobble dado blade, this style has 2 blades:
http://tomsworkbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Excalibur.jpg
If you suggest a stacked set instead, I'd be open to a suggested brand, kee ping in mind that I will not be doing production work like you.
As always, thanks!
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On 1/23/2015 2:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

It is desirable to center the stub tenon grooves, but not absolutely necessary.
It is a helluva lot fussier of a set up, all around, to not do so ... particularly when cutting the stub tenons.

That dado blade, and a sacrificial fence will do fine for cutting the stub tenons after the grooves are cut (see below).
Back to the grooves:
If you were using 1/4" plywood, which is typically 15/32", it is easier to not use a dado blade for the grooves, except that the groove will always be centered with this method.
I simply use a regular 1/8" kerf blade to cut 1/4" mdf or 1/4 (15/32)" stub tenon panel grooves.
Use a test board of the exact same stock, set the fence so the blade is a bit shy of being perfectly centered, make one pass, then flip the board end for end and make another pass.
That second pass will center the groove perfectly.
Test your fit, and make slight adjustments to the fence as needed, then repeat _both_ steps above with another test piece to get the proper fence setting for a perfect sized groove.

Since you will be using the precision of the fence (plus auxiliary/sacrificial fence) to provide the precision in length of the stub tenon, you do not need a high dollar dado set.
Freud is hard to beat. You can buy cheaper, but eventually you'll most likely be sharpening as much as you're cutting.
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On 1/23/2015 2:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

That double blade is still a wobble blade, just spin the blade on your arbor and watch the blades move back and forth. Each blade just wobbles half as much but you still end up with a round bottom grove.

There are a lot of good brands of stacked dado's. What you money mostly goes for is a cut that is clean. BUT If you go for the centered grove for the panels to fit into, you can cut the stub tenons on the ends of the rails with a straight cut router bit in the router table. Just use the fence to set the length of the tenon to be a "hair" short of the depth of the grooves that will receive the panels. And push the rail through, perpendicular to the fence, with a square piece of scrap plywood to back up the cut and to keep the rail perpendicular to the fence.
Back to the dado set and brand. The better quality the more likely you are to use it. Basically if it gives yu good results you are not going to fear using it. I went from a wobble blade to a Forrest Dado King set 10+ years ago and I cut a ton of dado's and groves with that set. The set has never had to be sharpened. You get what you pay for.
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On 1/24/2015 9:53 AM, Leon wrote:

Hey! ... tell that to our vaunted spiritual leader, Norm.
IIRC, a double bladed wobbler was all he used to cut dadoes in the first few episodes of NYW. ;)
Actually owned one years ago, and the "cove" that double bladed wobble dado was so slight it would most likely not be an issue over a 1/2" stub.
If it was, and the OP didn't want to $pring for a stacked dado set, and there is a slight cove with his existing blade, no problem to cut the stub tenon a RCH thicker and hit it with some 80g on a flat block.
But, as you laid out, using his new router table to cut the stub tenons sidesteps that issue nicely.
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On 1/24/2015 1:02 PM, Swingman wrote:

Yeah! On a Shop Smith, Then IIRC a Delta contractors saw and eventually a Unisaw.

That would be the way to do it so you don't have that hollow spot.

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On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 10:53:24 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

841 would force me to center the T&G. It is my understanding that 1/4" MDF is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood which is less.

re the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your thoughts on the issue first.

ing the same doors. My drawers fronts will match the doors as opposed to be plain like yours.

g for?

I'm not sure if the dado blade shown below will do a good enough job. Obvio usly some testing is in order.

rmally associated with a wobble dado blade, this style has 2 blades:

I hope to do some testing tomorrow - Sunday.
I spent most of today installing the new drawers using Swingman's slide fra mes. It's all well and good that they worked fine on the bench, but it took a bunch of shimming to get them level front to back and side to side in th e cabinets themselves.
For the time being I re-used the old drawer fronts which were actually part of the original drawers. Not drawers fronts, but the actual front of the d rawer. The sides were nailed into a 3/8" "raised panel" on the back of the drawer front. I built a jig, put a wide base on my router and removed the r aised panel so the fronts would sit flat on my new drawer boxes. No sense i n letting the drawers sit around while I make the drawer fronts, doors, pai nt the kitchen, etc.
Anyway, tomorrow will be stub tenon training day.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
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"DerbyDad03" wrote:
2 - I don't have a stacked dado set, but I will buy one if the dado blade I have won't do the job. --------------------------------------- As mentioned by others, Freud has some nice products.
I had an SD-508 carbide stackable dado set from Freud. When I bought mine they were about $190, but that was 20 years ago. Today, $250 should cover it.
Add a sacrificial fence using 13 ply Birch ply and you have just given yourself the most useful tools to make case goods using a table saw.
Before you know it, you'll be a Normite.
Have fun.
Lew
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Guess I was in the ball park, price wise.
http://tinyurl.com/ohl8jsh
Lew
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On 1/23/2015 11:48 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:

the cover. I use this method 10+ years ago to buy my Forrest Dado King stacked set. Today with the discount that will cost you $240.00.
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On 1/23/15, 9:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

A simple slot cutter bit (left side bit of #7841) and a router table could do what you need (you don't need to cut the tongue from what I understand of your project).
-BR
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