Measure without tape measure.

[dpb]

...

I have one of those infernal things as well as the wife's Buick -- what the heck is wrong w/ a stinkin' ol' off/head/park switch is beyond me.

--

[Jack Stein]

Thats because they spend 16 years of school learning English and not one hour teaching them how to safely fix a light switch, or a leaky faucet, or how to change a flat, or how to paint a house or anything much useful. I might add most/many Americans could speak english about as good the first day they walked into school as when they left 12/16 years later.

I was looking at a house for my son to rent his senior year at college and asked one of the kids moving out if he had a job lined up. He said no, he was going to continue his education. I said you would think after 16 years of school, and a TON of money for college he would have finally been ready for employment... He said they mainly taught him how to study.... 16 years of school and so far all he learned was how to study.... go figure!

[Lee Michaels]

"Jack Stein" wrote

Speaking of modern vehicles...

My wife bought a car recently. I test drove it but haven't driven it since. I haven't had time to sit down and read the manual. I don't feel confident without reading the manual. That damn car is smarter than me.

Shortly after buying the car, She developed some major upper back pain. I was giving her massages nightly and we were experimenting with different topical pain products. This went on for a week and a half. We finally figured out that the car has some kind of adjustable lumbar support.

We figured out the secret handshake for this adjustable lumbar support. It turns out at the original setting, it turned her shoulders down. This led to the painful upper back. We came up with a comfortable setting for her. And the back pains magically vanished!

We peeled a bunch of warning labels off of the car. But none of them mentioned the consequences of a maladjusted lumbar support.

[B A R R Y]

There are plenty of occupations where 4 years of college is not enough.

[Jim Behning]

I did not learn how to do the income earning things I have done the past 24 years in 16 years of formal education. I learned how to tinker from my Dad. Cooking and baking from my Mom.

My nephew did not have a tinkering father about. It was disappointing when I went on a week long bicycle tour with him that he knew little about basic bicycle tuning. He has learned a bit more in the past few years as he has gotten even more in to bicycling. It is cool that he is riding and racing. I like to think that his Uncle Jim that took him off in the woods 12 years ago mountain bike riding and brought him out looking like a beat dog had some influence on him. Come to think of it he is not a big fan of mountain bike riding.

I think that a lot of tinkering skills are learned from parents and friends. On the other hand I did not have a great wood shop teacher in high school. A better one in college but I only took a semester of shop in college. Maybe better shop teachers might have had more influence on me. One of my high school buddy's dad had a one man car repair shop. I used to like hanging out there.

[B A R R Y]

One of the most talented orthopedic surgeons in my area is an avid mountain biking enthusiast, and nearly a fearless technical terrain rider. He is also the worlds WORST bicycle mechanic.

But, boy, can he fix people!

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[Jim Behning]

I hope my nephew learns a trade. I think he is about 17 years in to his education. Fast track in college but can't leave. Working on doctorate.

[Jack Stein]

The interesting thing is after 16 years of education all he has learned is how to learn. Probably still can't fix a leaky faucet, replace a light switch, or any other myriad of things a rounded person should be able to do in every day life, let alone a marketable skill. I can't think of anything useful that should take 16 years of study before actually doing something, including brain surgery.

[B A R R Y]

So, you can do brain surgery? How about a root canal?

Can you write an airtight big-business contract or litigate?

Can you formulate and run a pharmaceutical research study?

Can you teach future physicists?

I fly and bicycle with folks who have job titles like "professor", "doctor", "scientist", and "attorney", and all of them needed more than 16 years of school to do what they do. I also don't think any of them pulls in less than $250,000 / year, so I'll bet they can get that outlet replaced.

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[J T]

Mon, Sep 24, 2007, 12:02pm [e-mail] (B=A0A=A0R=A0R=A0Y) doth sayeth: There are plenty of occupations where 4 years of college is not enough.

Many jobs actually only require the qualifications of an 8th grade education - but the education level to 'get' the jobs have gradually been increased - but with no increase in the job requiements. So you've got college graduates holding jobs an eight grade graduate could do, except only a college graduate would be hired for the job. I guess that means college graduates are dumber nowadays, and the ones that don't qualifiy for the 8th grade jobs are going into politics. Or something like that.

JOAT What is life without challenge and a constant stream of new humiliations?

- Peter Egan

[J. Clarke]

None of this is really on point--the issue is not whether he can perform some specific task, the issue is whether 16 years of education is actually required in order to obtain the skills necessary to perform those tasks.

Further, some of the tasks you describe depend more on experience than on schooling. If you were up for murder, which would you rather have, some guy who is fresh out of Harvard Law or some guy who challenged the bar exam (which one used to be able to do in some states) and then spent the last 20 years successfully defending accused criminals?

Well then theyr'e damned lucky, because I know a number of people with such titles who are having a Hell of a time making ends meet.

[Puckdropper]

B A R R Y wrote in news: [e-mail]:

*snip*

*snip*

You mean it's not $contract =~ s/Their Business/Your Business/ $contract =~ s/Their customer/Your Customer/

?

(That is replace their business with your business in the contract...)

Puckdropper

[Jack Stein]

No, I only went to school for 17 years and about everything valuable I learned outside of school. The point is after 16 years of school in the US, you are prepared to do about nothing you would not have been able to do with a VERY rudimentary education. Our children are spending (wasting) unbelievable amounts of time on useless studies. More over, I think it is bazaar that all this hours spent learning and they don't know jack about some of the most basic things people should know, such as replacing a light switch or fixing a leaky faucet.

That's because they pretty much wasted the first 16 years of their education learning useless things or things that could have been learned in FAR less time.

That's sad, plenty of people pull in millions a year and never finished college or even high school. The relationship between 16 years of school and a few years of grad school is way out of balance I agree. Too bad everyone is pretty much forced to waste 16 years of their life in inferior schools learning pretty much nothing worth while or marketable, and have to put in another 4 years at least before they can have half a chance at getting some easy cash. Even after 20 years of school, many professionals are still worth little until they get some real experience under their belt, and they probably learned about 40% of what they need in the last 4 years of school, and 50% in the next 4 years on the job. The other 10% they learned in the first 16 years of wasted time. I think a little less time spent conjugating verbs and a little learning how things work and how to maintain them would be a giant improvement.

[Puckdropper]

Jack Stein wrote in news:WtednVpaM-mKsmHbnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

*snip*

That's too bad. Once I got past my 12th year I was really learning some useful stuff. Ideal gas laws, for example... So I set the air compressor regulator on 35 psi and blow up a tire. I know from General Chemistry that the tire will have 35 psi in it when I'm done.

Yeah... Reading, Writing (letter making, not actual writing), and how to use a calculator.

I agree that 5-12 grades is a waste of time. It's doubtful you'll have really good schools with teachers that actually care about students learning the material, you'll probably just simply get Wardens with assigned drills. I was lucky, of the 4 schools I had during my 5th -

12th years, two of them were really good.

I guess part of the trouble is that most students don't want to be there. Even the smart kids would rather be anywhere else but in this or that pathetic class. After 8th grade, make education optional and non-taxed (i.e. tuition based). Give students the option of where to go and what fields to study, and they'll get a better education.

Puckdropper

[Robatoy]

On Sep 27, 10:24 pm, Puckdropper wrote: [snipped for brevity]

If a kid wants to quit after 12 years of basic education, fine. Put him/her in the Armend Forces for 2 years in a non-combat role. Leave the combat to those who have made that choice for themselves. (Don't flame me, this is a complicated issue as there is a distinction between fighting for liberty, justice and democracy vs lining the coffers of corporate entities.)

At the end, give them a coupon for 2 years free tuition. If they want to go to college, at least they can make their own farking bed, keep themselves clean, and respect authority. For the kid that wants to go straight to college, make ROTC available in exchange for tuition.

and bring back corporal punishment!

For some reason, parents and schools seem to omit the value of discipline these days.

r

[Swingman]

I like that concept ... too bad the educrats won't buy it.

It'll threaten the pensions and benefits that are such a big part of the cost of what is laughably referred to as "education" in most urban settings these days.

[Mike Marlow]

It would do that indeed, but when was the last time you met a room full of

8th graders who really had any clue what they wanted to do when they grew up? I sure as hell wouldn't want to trust the future development of this country to the whims of 8th graders.

[Swingman]

Problem is, you're effectively doing the functional equivalent of that already.

8th grade is a good 'fork in the road' ...

Those who have the desire to continue with a classic education and go on to college can continue on a different track without being drug down by the shenanigans of those who have no desire to ever go to college.

Those who want to go into a trade or technical field don't have to sit through the crap and can immediately get down to the business of learning the skills that will eventually get them though life.

A much better solution for all concerned, including the country, IMO.

IIRC, the UK once did that (and may still do), after what was known as the "11 plus exams", where a pupil's aptitude was determined, based on the exam results, as to which "path" they took.

in the UK during the time, I'm still impressed by the high level of "education", in the finest sense of the word, reached by the general population, regardless of which "fork" they took. Even to this obtuse 20 something at the time, it was obvious that the general population far exceeded the education level of most Americans, even back then in the 60's.

We need to do something ... this thing we call Houston Independent School District, as in most major cities, is nothing but an urban cesspool that is a training ground for thugs and gangs.

I just finished a long 12 years of getting a kid through the cesspool, so it's fresh on my mind ... not to mention the $1100+ a month I pay in school taxes to perpetuate the mediocrity and feather the nest of the educrats.

All it takes is attendance at one school board meeting to know that "education" is NOT the point, but instead, benefits and pensions.

[Puckdropper]

"Mike Marlow" wrote in news:42f13$46fd5a82$471fbb11$ [e-mail]:

That's why your degree program is still 50% general education. You expose the students to sciences and business, while the other half is what they want to study. The whole point is to make school interesting AND get rid of the people who act out because they don't want to be there.

It's too bad that the good of the young population is sacrificed in the pursuit of the all mighty dollar.

Puckdropper

[Puckdropper]

"Swingman" wrote in news:hsydnTjiM5cA-2DbnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

*snip*

Sometimes you don't even need to go that far. Some schools get to be so worried about it that it's well known throughout the school that they're trying to make money.

That's why sports are so popular ($$ for admission) and the "arts" aren't. Copyrights don't allow schools (or other groups) to charge admission fees for performances. I guess shop classes are the same way. Materials, parts, but rarely any income.

Puckdropper