Having trouble marking dovetails and your doing/cutting pins first.
Cut tails first. Reason; when you mark and cut the pins no matter what angle you actually cut each tail (by hand there are going to be minor variations) the pin is still cut absolutely straight/vertical. Marking pins from the tails is totally unobstructed. Finally; marking in the end-grain is far easier to get a solid visible mark and rarely does end grain cause your knife to wander. IMHO ... cut tails then pins is the most repeatable accruate way.
A cheap alternative that I like is a comfortable hacksaw; this may work only in hardwoods, that's all I've used it on.
Also, without going into the whole tailsfirst/pinsfirst controversy, my experience is that that pins marked from tails were more conspicuous, and that any error in the tail angle (not squareness) could be remedied on the pins.
Only one P in my real address/ Un seul P dans ma véritable adresse
Given my results with chisels, I'm sorry to hear that. :-)
Sounds like a problem with the saw itself.
Not really, but if you have the cash, it won't hurt you. I cut dovetails with a $25 mini-dozuki "Z-saw" before I upgraded to the IT saw, and it did just fine. In fact, I still sometimes use it for cutting in softwoods.
What I gained with the fancier saw was efficiency and ergonomics. It's more comfortable to use, and it just cuts straight, *period*. Wherever you start the cut, the saw will go straight, and quickly. My dozuki, on the other hand, can wobble or drift if I'm not mindful of my technique.
FWIW, in my search for the "perfect" dt saw, I tried a few different Zona model-makers saws (similar to the Exacto). They left lovely smooth surfaces, but they were so slow-cutting that there was just too much opportunity for the cuts to wander. I think I would up swapping them to Larry "C-less". He doesn't actually do any woodworking, so I don't know if they would have worked better for him.
I'm sure others have mentioned this to you before, but probably the best way for you to improve to the point where you can trust yourself, is to take a scrap board (hardwood is probably preferable, assuming you will be making projects out of hardwood), lay out a series of tails and cut them. Then cut the end of the board off and repeat. Do the same thing for some pins.
You can compensate *somewhat* for a mediocre saw with that sort of practice, as you learn to control it. The when/if you do get a good saw, you'll find yourself breezing through the things.
I started this thread a while back, so I figured I'd post a followup. I'm a rank amateur trying to come up the curve. I've cut about 100 or so dovetails now (I figure at least 25 sets), and here's a few beginner observations. I don't offer these with any authority at all (the experienced guys here will run circles around me) ... but I offer them in hopes that other newcomers might benefit.
- The biggest thing for me was learning to cut right at the line. For me, the difference in making dovetails has been learning how to saw right. No downward pressure at all on the saw, and keeping the arm straight and steady, cutting with just the weight of the saw. I found that if I hit the lines right on, it fits without chiseling. For a while, I was trying to saw wide and then trim with a chisel, but I never got consistent fits that way.
- The second biggest thing was to mark the second joint (tails for me) really precisely.
- I guess anything precise will work for marking. I used several knives, but then ended up preferring a sharp scratch awl. The lines were more visible and it seemed easier to get into the gaps for me. I guess this is personal preference.
- I have tried lots of saws, including middling Japanese dozukis as well as western saws. All work, but my favorite is an open-handled brass backed dovetail saw I got off of Ebay, set with little kerf, and sharpened according to instructions I pulled off of the net. I like the western saw because it has just enough kerf that you can slightly adjust the angle as you start the cut. I suspect that my saw is not sharpened expertly, but it cuts darned good. Even a cheapie gents dovetail saw I pressed out the kerf on and resharpened will cut pretty straight and smooth. I think any saw can work well, depending on what you get used to.
Again, I don't pretend to be expert at all on this. Just offering the observations of a novice, in the hopes that it might benefit other novices.
All good advice, especially the idea of aiming for a fit directly from the saw. I will add one or two things: When sawing the pins (assuming you are marking them from the tails), aim for your sawcut to "split the line on the waste side". What this means to me is position the saw so that it just touches the scribe line but the kerf falls in the waste. Also, it helps if your first sawcut is used to simply establish a kerf across the end of the board. After the kerf is made, then you can concentrate on keeping the saw vertical as you cut downward. As for your comment on sawing technique -- one thing that helps to keep the saw straight and steady is getting into a stance that is comfortable. I'm a lefty, and I stand with my right foot slightly back, and my body positioned so that my shoulder is directly aligned with the joint. My arm is slightly away from my body so that I am not "crowding myself", but my elbow, shoulder and wrist are all in line.
Yep. My own preference is the Veritas double-bevel knife. I used an awl for a while, but it seemed to want to skip in my hands, while the knife is easy to keep referenced against the tail board. But whatever works best for you.
A big part of dovetails is simply getting accustomed to the tools you have, and being comfortable with them. It's important to be precise, but even moreso, IMHO, you have to be able to repeat your level of precision on a consistent basis.
No argument with that idea. Heck, some folks cut dt's with hacksaws. :-) My first experience with a good open-handled Western backsaw was a bit of a revelation. It cost me all of $15 (sharpened), and from the first time I picked it up, it just felt natural. The grip just naturally puts your wrist and hand in the proper position for precise sawing. (My only gripe with dozukis is those stick handles.)
Most new saws have way too much set, and that's likely to cause problems as the saw can wobble within the wider kerf. With a properly-set saw, it will be darned hard to adjust the angle of your cut once it's established, and that's the way it should be.
Good job. You've picked up a lot of the important techniques for cutting good dt's. Once a beginner has learned all of these things, the major thing left to do is simply practice until it becomes second-nature. At that point you can achieve the repeatability that makes it all come together.
One final thing: If it's been a while since you've cut some dt's, it's good idea to take a scrap board out and draw a few lines and make some practice cuts before you do them for real on expensive wood. Just like warming up for sports, it helps to get the proper muscles loose and get yourself focused.
Some little tidbits from the Rob Cosman video (one of my wood show purchases) that I found helpful. Rob planes the endgrain of the wood prior to marking, leaving a polished surface that shows the lines better.
The other is a sawing technique I like. I have been starting a saw cut using my fore finger to guide the saw. He uses his fore finger and his thumb to guide the saw when starting the cut. He marks both ends of the cut line this way for exact alignment.
Rob uses a ball point pen to mark the tails in the video. I've used a black pen to mark walnut, and it works.
Two tidbits from my shop . . .
I have the $50 maginfying lamp (Woodcraft) that is on a goose neck mounted on my bench. I adjust the lamp to direct an oblique light across the marks or scribe lines. I don't use the magnifying lense for this, just the light. The lense is for sharpening handsaws.
After the saw cut is started, I make sure that the saw blade is vertical, and I move my fore finger to be along side of the blade for tactile feed back of the blade position. I just touch the blade lightly (to monitor, not guide the blade).
After trying an awl I tried a very old penknife, was my grandfather's, might have been his father's. It has a largeish blade, thin at the end from years of sharpening and is easy to register against the face of the tails. the size makes it easy to get a good visible line too. Again though, whatever works for you.
I never thought to mention that. I usually plane the endgrain as part of doing the final squaring of a piece. I do it partially because I usually need to touch things up a bit for squareness after sawing, and because it just looks better to have planed endgrain when you'll be seeing it like in dovetails. And come to think of it, it does show scribe marks better.
So he basically notches the piece on either end of the cut before starting to saw? I might have to try that. I currently wrap my forefinger over the end of the board and use the side of it to reference the saw.
Gosh, I don't know if I can remember all the various ways I've tried to mark dovetails. Various colored pens and pencils, from black to white, to almost flourescent colors. Once on cocobolo I even made up a paper template that I taped across the end of the board. It worked, sort of. :-}
I think the importance of oblique lighting when cutting dt's is sometimes overlooked. My bench is set up near the entrance to the (south-facing) garage/shop door, and I do all my dt sawing with the work clamped in my leg vise and my back to the entrance. That way I always have the natural light source coming from an angle (except at midday). When needed, I simply turn on my bench-lamp (nothing more than an adjustable lamp mounted in a wood block with a dowel that fits into the dogholes on my bench) and position it for added light.
Sounds like the way I do it. Did you pick that up at Homestead or just come into it on your own? I know some folks talk about using their fingertip to start the cut, but that just doesn't seem very helpful (and is a bit dangerous). Using the side of the finger just seems more natural.
Yeah, I used quite a few different marking tools before settling on the Veritas double-bevel knife. I started with an Exacto type, but that sort of knife edge didn't seem as precise. I tried an awl, but it tended to skip at just the wrong time. Then I bought the Crown set of left and right knives, and they're OK, but it's a pain to have to switch, and that's one more thing to lose in the mess of tools on the bench. :-}
From there it was on to a Hock shiv mounted in a homemade cocobolo handle. Great knife, but a bit big for marking some of the smaller pins I like to cut. I now use it for hand-to-hand combat and skinning large game animals. ;-) The Veritas just seems like the best compromise for the way I work. It can be handled like a pencil, which gives you great control, and the blade is narrow with a flat back and double-bevel which lets you simply reverse it to get it into tight spaces.
Actually, he does start sawing, no notches. He aligns the saw with a fore finger or fingernail and he has the thumb or thumbnail marking the near side of the cut. Using only 20% of the weight of the saw, he starts the cut with light strokes and then brings the saw down to the surface, guiding with the thumbnail for accurate alignment.
It's just something I came to by myself. It takes such little pressure on the saw to guide it, just the slight touch of a finger nail will do. I tried using square blocks to make the cut vertical, but that's awkard and really doesn't work for me. After I learned to trust the saw (to stay in the kerf), I realized that after I started the cut line was the time to insure the saw was vertical before the kerf was really initiated. As the kerf is initiated, the vertical direction of the cut is established.
I hope this not over discussion of the topic. Analyzing the the sequence of a successful cut helps me with the awarness of what it takes to make a good cut. I have to stay aware at all times, or my work quality falls apart. I am sometimes able to make somethig good, but I really have to work hard at it. The professionals that I have seen appear to throw it up on the bench and just do it. I know it probably was not always like that for them though and the techniques they use are done subconsciously.
I'll have to give it a try that way and compare it to my technique.
Same here. I even went to the trouble of cutting various guide-block "training wheels", but found that I was better-served by just training myself to do it correctly without the extra stuff.
It sounds like that's similar to my approach. I make the initial kerf without being concerned about verticality; it's about establishing the horizontal angle. Once I have just severed the wood fibers, I can feel that aspect of the cut even without looking. From there it's about getting and keeping verticality.
We're on the same page. I don't know if this is useful for others, but it helps me to analyze what I do, and see if there are better ways. Also, I'm no expert, but I do have certain techniques that I no longer do totally consciously. The problem is, if it's been a long time since I've done something like cutting dt's, I need to approach it from a step-by-step technique. Like you say, if I just go in and start sawing away, I'm likely to butcher things. So this thread is sort of a reality check for me, and a reminder.
And this sure beats talking about trolls and Dubya, no? :-)
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